Praying the Liturgy of the Hours + Another "Little Office"

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wyndysascha

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How would one pray two hours alongside each other from slightly different sources?

Specifically, I am thinking of praying any given Hour of the Liturgy of the Hours with the same hour within the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I have prayed both for some time now: I simply conclude the Liturgy of the Hours, then go straight into the Little Office’s Invitatory.

This feels a little “clunky” to me, particularly the Invitatory’s effective repetition. It’s especially so when I’ve combined the Office of Readings and Morning Prayer of one and the Matins and Lauds of the other.

The General Instruction of the Liturgy of the Hours seems silent on this. Please, can someone help?
 
I am intrigued. Why would you do this and how do you find the time?
 
TomH1 said:
I am intrigued. Why would you do this and how do you find the time?
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If one only recites the Office, instead if singing it, it wouldn’t take too much time. When I chant the Monastic Office, it’s a total of about two and a half hours a day. If I chant the LOTH, it’s about 90 minutes a day. That’s not all that formidable, but mind you, I’m retired (but busier than ever). Recited, Lauds and Vespers of the LOTH would be max 15 minutes. When I worked I could manage chanting Lauds, Vespers and Compline of the LOTH, I would recite Vigils at home and mid-day at work, but the monastic Office was a bit too much.

That said, to answer the OP, I’m really not all that familiar with the protocols around the Little Office of the BVM as I’ve never used it. The reference in that matter would be the Carthusians. They chant the major hours (Vigils+Lauds and Vespers) in choir, but the LOBVM privately in their cells. I’m guessing they just treat them as two stand-alone Offices, but they wouldn’t feel your clunkiness because the cell and the oratory are separate places and they have to make the trek between the two. It would give them a distinct break.

In the Benedictine world, the LOBVM was largely the Office of the lay brothers, who would typically only attend the major hours (Vigils, Lauds and Vespers) on Sundays. They wouldn’t even attend the conventual Mass on weekdays, they’d have their own very early Mass so they could get to work. So they wouldn’t mix genres either. As an aside, today there are no lay brothers. All are professed, either brother or priest, but they have the same monastic vows now, and they attend the hours in choir. Some, who have early morning tasks to attend to, will leave Vigils after the first Nocturne. All now attend the conventual Mass since they disposed of their farm animals and instead buy their milk for their cheese factory.

I do know a monk who does both in cell; he is chaplain at a women’s monastery, but he doesn’t attend the Office in choir with them as they use a different schema than he’s used to (the one of his abbey, which is also where I’m an oblate). He recently started praying the LOBVM after his main Office. He does the main morning office (“the morning onslaught” as he calls it) with Lauds immediately following Vigils, Benedictine style, and the LOBVM. He is a Benedictine but with strong Carthusian sympathies which are nourished by being a chaplain and living in his own cell apart from the women’s cloister. He celebrates the OF Mass for the sisters (all in Latin Gregorian chant except for the readings which alternate French and English) but does his own thing for the Divine Office.

I will ask him how he does it.
 
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ioannes_pius said:
What hours do you typically recite every day?
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In my case all of them, unless I have a schedule conflict. In that case I may omit an hour, or combine two minor hours. In summer I typically recite only one mid-day hour. There are rubrics for that in the monastic Office, on a two week cycle.
 
OraLabora said:
As an aside, today there are no lay brothers.
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I may be totally wrong here (according to my wife I often am!) and I may have misread what is written here but it seems to me there may be one monastery belonging to the Solesmes Congregation that may have lay brothers: Clear Creek Abbey in the USA.

Perhaps you could answer something on which I am uncertain. Did Vatican II rule that there should be no more choir monks and lay brothers or did it only make a recommendation. I cannot see how the Carthusians could maintain their life without lay brothers. I know Carthusians are not Benedictines and it was the Black Monks you were talking about. I am mentioning the Carthusians here in relation to my question about what Vatican II had to say on the matter of lay brothers.
 
VII required that religious orders return to the prescription of their founders. I believe the Carthusians always had lay brothers but I may be wrong. For the Benedictines, the concept was never in the Rule of St Benedict.
 
I agree, I think the Carthusians always did. I simply can not see how it would be possible for a Carthusian priory to function without them.
 
Oh, that was meant to be addressed to the OP, sorry if that was unclear. Your reply is appreciated nonetheless.
 
I do both, and I don’t have a “set time”. I don’t tend to go to bed until 1 o’clock or so, but I typically recite the LOTH around 9 o’clock (takes me about 5 minutes since I simply recite it), and the LOBVM some time before 10 (takes me about another 5 minutes). Last night I didn’t get to it until about 11:30, but that’s not the norm for me.
 
Wow, lots of responses, thank you everyone and especially @OraLabora !

@ioannes_pius , it will vary. As @TomH1 implies, it can be a challenge but, as @OraLabora says, reciting it is manageable. Certainly, I always pray the Office of Readings + Morning Prayer of the Liturgy of the Hours and Matins + Lauds of the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I’m also able to pray Prime of the LOBVM just before work. I always carve-out the time for Evening Prayer / Vespers, but the exact time will vary.

Compline / Night Prayer is just before bed, so that’s easy enough!

Mid-Morning Prayer / Terce, Midday Prayer / Sext, and Afternoon Prayer / None I pray when I can - however, it’s not always possible to set the time aside.

It helps that I work part-time hours, six days a week. Certainly, between my “regular prayer” (of which the above forms a part) and the other Church things I do, I’m not sure how I’d fit it all in if I had a full-time job. That I’m currently discerning a vocation is an added impetus to find the time too!
 
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Oh okay.

Well, assuming that you start with the Divine Office, I would begin as usual, and continue all the way through up to (but not including) the conclusion. As soon as you reach the conclusion, go over to the first antiphon of whichever hour you’re reciting in the Little Office, and continue all the way through to the end.
 
You’re very welcome. Do you have specific orders/congregations you’re looking at for a vocation?

Anyway my monk friend replied to my query, and this is how he answered:

"I follow the Carthusians more or less on this. I start with the Office of our Lady which is supposed to begin with a silent Ave. I go straight through and then have a little time of silence before beginning the canonical hour.

At Compline I start (like the Carthusians) with the canonical hour through the collect. Then I say Ave silently and start Compline of Our Lady which ends with the Marian Antiphon. Hope that helps."
 
Thanks for the further advice! And I hope you can pass on my thanks to your friend also. Strange though it might sound, I’ve not actually considered praying the Little Office before the Hour - an oversight on my part! But dividing the two with a period of silence seems most appropriate.

I actually am looking in to a specific congregation: the Oratorians. Their attachment to beautiful liturgy and the sacraments resonates greatly with me, as does the life and spirituality of St Philip Neri himself.

At the moment, my vocational discernment turns on two questions: is God calling me to be a priest? and is that priesthood to be found within a diocesan or Oratorian vocation? I feel fairly confident as to the former; as to the latter, that’s taking a little more time! If you’ve any advice to offer as to that, it’d be most gratefully received 😃

Thanks Again!
 
I don’t know much about the Oratorians, as I’m a Benedictine myself (a secular oblate). My only advice is that you be attracted by their charism as your reason for joining. I know of a young postulant who joined a traditionalist Benedictine abbey (EF Mass and pre-Conciliar monastic office) because he wanted to be in a traditionalist place, but he was not particularly attracted to the Benedictine charism, so he washed out. The charism should always come first, the form of the liturgy is the icing on the cake. Of course for some orders like the Benedictines, the liturgy is the cake, and different houses have different flavours of icing, but there’s more to being Benedictine than just the cake, there’s the rest of the meal too! (the Rule, community life, cloister, the vows of stability, obedience and conversion of life, etc.)
 
The Oratorians were founded by St Philip Neri. He sought interior conversion of heart rather than focusing on exterior change in the Church’s structures - he felt that, in doing so, the simplicity of the early Church could be recaptured.

His congregations were meant to be small communities of individuals living not under a formal rule but rather bound by charity. That - the living in community in a way that recaptures the Church of Acts, but staying solidly orthodox and dedicated to the sacraments in a simple and charitable way - is what appeals to me.

Also, those testing their vocations with the Oratorians are invited to stay with them for a month to give an initial insight into the life, so no-one attempts the novitiate blind. Unfortunately, it’s the primary way of gaining that insight so it’s difficult to discern too far!
 
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