praying the Luminous Mysteries

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

This brings me to a couple of questions (that bothers me a bit):

• Is it regarded as uncatholic-no good to have a 20 decade rosary?
• Is it regarded as progressive and bad to pray all the sets (luminous included) on week basis?
• Should i on the other hand instead pray the traditional 15 mysteries a day instead?
• Is it uncatholic of me to only just follow the day to day and mysteries from day to day cyclus?

And yes…im dead serious in my questioning.

Please tell me how it could be uncatholic to follow a suggestion of a pope who is a Blessed and I am sure will be a Saint in the near future.

 

[Padraig1972]

You are right…i am probably too over-cautious. Which can be a bad thing.

 

[thistle]

This is a nice saying but when one actually takes a look at it they realize that it does not work.

Each decade of a Rosary consists of at least 12 prayers (Our Father, 10 Hail Marys, and a Glory Be). Also there are the three Hail Marys to begin the Rosary so one could not even say that there are 150 Hail Marys (there are 153).

You are correct about the 153 Hail Mary’s. I always viewed them not for the Psalms but for the 153 fish caught by the Disciples.

John 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land, full of great fishes, one hundred and fifty-three. And although there were so many, the net was not broken.

Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 11. Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land, full of great fishes, one hundred and fifty-three; a figure of the great number to be converted by the labours of the apostles. (Witham)

 

[BVM_1221]

Actually, one does have to include the Gloria Patri. The Franciscan Crown is not the rosary, it is a separate chaplet consisting of seven decades [though it shouldn’t technically be called a decade] of seven Ave Maria

But it’s not Our Lady’s Sorrows. I have prayed the Chaplet of Our Lady’s Sorrows [though I’ve had to stop recently]. It’s a lovely chaplet, with many indulgences etc. But it’s not the rosary.

Sorry, the Franciscan Rosary is seven (7) decades, each decade having one (1) OF and ten (10) HMs. The Rosary you are thinking of, the 7 sets of 7 beads, is the Servite Rosary.

 

[Te_Deum]

This is a nice saying but when one actually takes a look at it they realize that it does not work.

Each decade of a Rosary consists of at least 12 prayers (Our Father, 10 Hail Marys, and a Glory Be). Also there are the three Hail Marys to begin the Rosary so one could not even say that there are 150 Hail Marys (there are 153).

Please stop saying this. It’s blatantly untrue. The 3 Ave Maria opening the rosary are not the rosary. I’ve already explained that a rosary consists of 15 decades of one Pater, ten Ave and one Gloria Patri. This is the rosary. Everything else is additional and do not constitute a rosary. You could get down on your knees and dispense all opening and closing prayers and you would have said a perfectly valid rosary.

Sorry, the Franciscan Rosary is seven (7) decades, each decade having one (1) OF and ten (10) HMs. The Rosary you are thinking of, the 7 sets of 7 beads, is the Servite Rosary.

I am well aware of the Servite Rosary. I mentioned it in my post. But you are simply wrong. There are seven Ave Maria in the Seraphic Rosary. Not ten.

Edit: No, I was indeed wrong. The Seraphic Rosary is ten Ave, nor seven. Still, it’s not Our Lady’s Psalter which does require the Gloria Patri for a decade.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Please stop saying this. It’s blatantly untrue. The 3 Ave Maria opening the rosary are not the rosary. I’ve already explained that a rosary consists of 15 decades of one Pater, ten Ave and one Gloria Patri. This is the rosary. Everything else is additional and do not constitute a rosary. You could get down on your knees and dispense all opening and closing prayers and you would have said a perfectly valid rosary.

I will not stop saying it. Every thing I have seen that teaches one to pray the Rosary says to pray three Hail Marys on the three beads before the first Our Father bead. Are not these three beads on a Rosary? So how can you say they are not part of the Rosary?

The Rosary consists of 60 prayers per decade (Our Father, 10 Hail Marys, Glory Be) so if one prays all 3 sets of decades straight through, with the beginning prayers (Apostles Creed, 3 Hail Marys) and the closing prayer (Hail Holy Queen) there are a total of 185 prayers.

 

[Te_Deum]

I will not stop saying it. Every thing I have seen that teaches one to pray the Rosary says to pray three Hail Marys on the three beads before the first Our Father bead. Are not these three beads on a Rosary? So how can you say they are not part of the Rosary?

The Rosary consists of 60 prayers per decade (Our Father, 10 Hail Marys, Glory Be) so if one prays all 3 sets of decades straight through, with the beginning prayers (Apostles Creed, 3 Hail Marys) and the closing prayer (Hail Holy Queen) there are a total of 185 prayers.

Quick! Someone call the Dominicans and tell them that they’ve been praying the rosary wrong for centuries!

The Dominican method opens so:

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

V. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
R. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

V. O Lord, open my lips
R. And my tongue shall announce your praise.

V. Incline to my aid, O God.
R. O Lord, make haste to help me.

V. Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to he Holy Spirit.
R. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen. Alleluia!

Then jumps straight into the mysteries. No, Credo, no Pater and no three Ave Maria. So, are we to conclude that they’re doing it wrong? No, because the rosary is not determined by opening and concluding prayers. A rosary is 15 sets of one Pater, ten Ave and one Gloria whilst meditating on the relevant mysteries.

This is how I can say they are not a part of the rosary… because they are blatantly not a part of the rosary. They are additional preparatory prayers. Nothing more. You can make rosary beads without the beads for saying so. In fact, did you know that you don’t even need beads to pray the rosary?

A rosary consists of 180 prayers. That’s it. 15x one Pater, ten Ave and one Gloria.

 

[jmj1984]

Requested in a private revelation that is not binding.

But that has been affirmed as true by every single pope since its occurence.

The Luminous Mysteries were added by a blessed, soon to be saint.

You cannot say 'soon to be saint’ you can say 'who may soon be a saint’. We have no idea whether he will be declared a saint or not, that is God’s choice. The speed at which he has been declared blessed does not necessarily reflect that he will quickly be made a saint or made a saint at all, Pope John XXIII was immensly popular and well liked and yet he was only beatified ten years ago and has yet to be made a saint, if he ever will be. Some blesseds are still not saints after centuries.

 

[Te_Deum]

Blessed Pope John Paul II is a saint, that’s exactly what “Blessed” means. He enjoys the beatific vision with God in heaven therefore he is a saint. However, whether he will be canonised so that his feast may be celebrated universally through-out the Church is the question. And there is no guarantee of that.

But yes okay… saint… or the Queen of Saints? See, we can both play that game. But either way, Our Lady, Queen of all Saints, did not ask for any additional mysteries. She did not ask for a change in the rosary. She asked for an additional prayer to be said after a rosary decade. It does not form a part of the rosary.

Blessed Pope John Paull II suggested these optional mysteries to the faithful. Which I think was a poor move. It ruins the flow of the rosary, it hints to the rosary having been deficient for several centuries and the fact that they are completely unnecessary (Christ’s public ministry is meditated on during the Sorrowful Mysteries) all contribute to why I do not pray them. Why do I need to meditate on the Wedding Feast of Cana as an example of Our Lady’s intercessory powers when I have the 5th Glorious Mystery, her Coronation in Heaven? Why do I need to meditate on the institution of the Holy Eucharist when we have the 5th Sorrowful Mystery, the Crucifixion?

Or why not simply meditate on the institution of the Most Holy Eucharist in the 1st Sorrowful Mystery when Our Lord went up to the Garden after the institution to pray?

As I said, completely unnecessary. By all means pray them but it would be better for Rome to treat them as a distinct chaplet like the Franciscan Crown or the Servite Rosary etc.

 

[jmj1984]

Blessed Pope John Paul II is a saint, that’s exactly what “Blessed” means. He enjoys the beatific vision with God in heaven therefore he is a saint. However, whether he will be canonised so that his feast may be celebrated universally through-out the Church is the question. And there is no guarantee of that.
.

I am using the term as in ‘canonised’, the way the term is generally used.

There are however several important difference between beatification and canonisation:

'**Before dealing with the actual procedure in causes of beatification and canonization, it is proper to define these terms precisely and briefly in view of the preceding considerations.

Canonization, generally speaking, is a decree regarding the public ecclesiastical veneration of an individual. Such veneration, however, may be permissive or preceptive, may be universal or local. If the decree contains a precept, and is universal in the sense that it binds the whole Church, it is a decree of canonization; if it only permits such worship, or if it binds under precept, but not with regard to the whole Church, it is a decree of beatificationTo sum up, beatification, in the present discipline, differs from canonization in this: that the former implies (1) a locally restricted, not a universal, permission to venerate, which is (2) a mere permission, and no precept; while canonization implies a universal precept.** and
‘This general agreement of theologians as to papal infallibility in canonization must not be extended to beatification, not withstanding the contrary teaching of the canonical commentary known as “Glossa” [in cap. un. de reliquiis et venerat. SS. (III, 22) in 6; Innocent., Comm. in quinque Decretalium libros, tit. de reliquiis, etc., no 4; Ostiensis in eumd. tit. no 10; Felini, cap. lii, De testibus, etc., X (II, 20); Caietani, tract. De indulgentiis adversus Lutherum ad Julium Mediceum; Augustini de Ancona, seu Triumphi, De potestate eccl., Q. xiv, a. 4). Canonists and theologians generally deny the infallible character of decrees of beatification, whether formal or equivalent, since it is always a permission, not a command; while it leads to canonization, it is not the last step. Moreover, in most cases, the cultus permitted by beatification, is restricted to a determined province, city, or religious body (Benedict XIV, op. cit., I, xlii). Some, however, have thought otherwise (Arriaga, Theol., V, disp. 7, p. 6; Amicus, Theol., IV, disp. 7, p. 4, no 98; Turrianus on II-II, V, disp. 17, no 6; Del Bene, De S. Inquisit. II, dub. 254).’

newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm**

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Quick! Someone call the Dominicans and tell them that they’ve been praying the rosary wrong for centuries!

The Dominican method opens so:

Then jumps straight into the mysteries. No, Credo, no Pater and no three Ave Maria. So, are we to conclude that they’re doing it wrong? No, because the rosary is not determined by opening and concluding prayers. A rosary is 15 sets of one Pater, ten Ave and one Gloria whilst meditating on the relevant mysteries.

This is how I can say they are not a part of the rosary… because they are blatantly not a part of the rosary. They are additional preparatory prayers. Nothing more. You can make rosary beads without the beads for saying so. In fact, did you know that you don’t even need beads to pray the rosary?

A rosary consists of 180 prayers. That’s it. 15x one Pater, ten Ave and one Gloria.

You seem to be leaving out the opening prayers that you posted.

Anyways. The common Rosary has the three Hail Marys at the beginning and, as I stated, every single thing I have seen that tells one how to pray the Rosary has this in it.

Yes there are different forms of the Rosary out there, but you can not claim that one is “more the” Rosary than any other.

It is a private devotion and can be prayed how one chooses.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

But that has been affirmed as true by every single pope since its occurence.

This does not change the fact that it is a private revelation and therefore non-binding upon us. We are free to believe, not believe, to follow it, to ignore it.

 

[jmj1984]

This does not change the fact that it is a private revelation and therefore non-binding upon us. We are free to believe, not believe, to follow it, to ignore it.

But it is certainly very imprudent and even rash to do so, whereas choosing to ignore the luminous mysteries is neither imprudent nor rash.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

But it is certainly very imprudent and even rash to do so, whereas choosing to ignore the luminous mysteries is neither imprudent nor rash.

I disagree. It is neither imprudent nor rash to not pay attention to something that, by definition, is extra and not part of the Deposit of Faith. Private revelations in no way adds to or replaces the Deposit of Faith.

I will state that Fatima plays no role in my spiritual life, I neither believe nor disbelieve in it as it has no role. There are other private revelations that do play a role in my spiritual life and I believe in them because of that.

Those that are outside of my spiritual life have no bearing on me so I do not pay them any attention.

We have the fullness of revelation though public revelation. Private revelations can enhance that but it can never replace it or make it “fuller”. As the Church Teaches, private revelations are not part of the required belief.

Just as no practice of a private devotion is required for Catholics.

 

[jmj1984]

Frankly this seems like a pointless argument.

Some people like praying the luminous mysteries, some don’t. I don’t because that is not how it was received by St Dominic nor how it was preserved and passed on by the Order of Preachers nor is it how other ‘marian’ saints like St Alphonsus and St Louis de Montfort understood the Rosary. Indeed the addition of another set of 5 destroys much of the symbolism which the latter saints speak of and renders the book 'Secret of the Rosary’ pointless or at least mostly wrong. I also don’t like it because I believe the Luminous mysteries lack substance and I can’t really meditate on them.

 

[jmj1984]

I disagree. It is neither imprudent nor rash to not pay attention to something that, by definition, is extra and not part of the Deposit of Faith. Private revelations in no way adds to or replaces the Deposit of Faith.

I will state that Fatima plays no role in my spiritual life, I neither believe nor disbelieve in it as it has no role. There are other private revelations that do play a role in my spiritual life and I believe in them because of that.

Those that are outside of my spiritual life have no bearing on me so I do not pay them any attention.

We have the fullness of revelation though public revelation. Private revelations can enhance that but it can never replace it or make it “fuller”. As the Church Teaches, private revelations are not part of the required belief.

Just as no practice of a private devotion is required for Catholics.

Br David, O.Carm

It is both imprudent and rash to deny a revelation that has been approved by the church and in which the Holy Mother of God asks us to pray certain prayers and do certain actions. That is self-evident.

 

[TimothyH]

Blessed Pope John Paull II suggested these optional mysteries to the faithful. Which I think was a poor move. It ruins the flow of the rosary, it hints to the rosary having been deficient for several centuries and the fact that they are completely unnecessary (Christ’s public ministry is meditated on during the Sorrowful Mysteries) all contribute to why I do not pray them. Why do I need to meditate on the Wedding Feast of Cana as an example of Our Lady’s intercessory powers when I have the 5th Glorious Mystery, her Coronation in Heaven? Why do I need to meditate on the institution of the Holy Eucharist when we have the 5th Sorrowful Mystery, the Crucifixion?

The name of the mysteries gives us a clue as to why one would want to pray them.

They are “Luminious mysteries” because they are the mysteries of light. The mysteries of light help some of us to meditate on Christ’s revelation of his kingdom in a way that the sorrowful or glorious mysteries are not able to do or not intended to do. Baptism… Manifestation… Proclamation… Transfiguration… Institution… all speak as a unified whole to the mystery of how Christ progressively revealed his kingdom to mankind.

I would point out that the entire Gospel of Matthew is constructed along these same lines, as a series of “Books” or sections where Christ progressively reveals his kingdom to mankind. Each section contains a narrative story followed by a lengthy discourse by Jesus and through these, Matthew shows us how Jesus brought to light the mysteries of the establishment of his kingdom.

• Prologue: Jesus ancestry and infancy
• Book 1: Announcement of the kingdom - story in chapters 3-4 about John the Baptist and Jesus’ early ministry followed by the sermon on the mount discourse in chapters 5-7
• Book 2: Establishment of the kingdom - story in chapters 8-9 about the miracles and comissioning of the twelve foloowed by the discourse in chapter 10 containing Jesus’ minssionary instructions.
• Book 3: Definition of the kingdom - story in chapters 11-12 where Jesus confronts an evil generation and the discourse in chapter 13 containing the kingdom parables
• Book 4: Transfer of Authority - story in chapters 14-15 containing Jesus’ travels and instruction to the 12 and the discourse in chapter 18 about life as a Christian.
• Book 5: Announcement of the end of the Old Kingdom - Story in chapters 19-23 containing the events in Judea and the “Olivet discourse” in chapters 24-25 where Jesus pronounces judgement on Jerusalem.
• Conclusion: Victory of the king in chapters 26-28

One can prefer not to pray the luminous mysteries for a variety of reasons which may or may not be valid including the fact that they were not given by the Blessed Virgin herself, personal preference, or whatever. But the luminous mysteries, when taken as a unfied whole, teach us a great deal about revealed truths which the other mysteries do not; mysteries which God himself wishes to reveal to us through one of his Gospels. Such is the wisdom of Pope John Paul II for recommending them. It’s worth reading Pope John Paul II’s own reasoning behind giving us the Lunimous Mysteries section 21 of his apostolic letter ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE at vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html

Nobody is saying that the other mysteries are deficient, or lacking, but that they probably wern’t given to us by Our Lady to help us meditate on the topic of her son’s kingdom. I might be so bold as to say that meditating on her son’s kingdom wasn’t her intent. I don’t understand why everything that a pope or priest or saint gives us has to take away from everything else that was given us prior. Isn’t that what non-Catholics insist all the time, that Catholicism is a corruption of true Christianity because so much has been added?

What if the next Pope gives us the “Old Testament Trusting in God Mysteries” which help us to meditate on how to trust God and forshadow the advent of Christ through Mary… Adam’s inability to follow God’s command… Abraham’s act of faith… Moses recieves the law… David dances naked before the ark… Queen Esther risks death to speak to the king… So what? How does that take away anything from the others?

The luminous mysteries are entirely optional anyway, as is the whole rosary, so its really not that big of a deal.

-Tim-

 

[Melchior_1]

Br David, O.Carm

It is both imprudent and rash to deny a revelation that has been approved by the church and in which the Holy Mother of God asks us to pray certain prayers and do certain actions. That is self-evident.

You’re denying things approved by the Church in two or three different threads, but you’re going to hang your hat on what is strictly speaking an optional practice?

I’m going to be a Dominican and even I see it as an optional practice. A GREAT practice that can lead to great things, but one can do another devotion instead. Like say, the Divine Mercy Chaplet.

 

[BVM_1221]

Quick! Someone call the Dominicans and tell them that they’ve been praying the rosary wrong for centuries!

The Legion Of Mary also has a set of introductory prayers quite different from either Dominican or standard practice. :clapping:

:compcoff:Those interested can GOOGLE it.

 

[jmj1984]

You’re denying things approved by the Church in two or three different threads, but you’re going to hang your hat on what is strictly speaking an optional practice?

I’m going to be a Dominican and even I see it as an optional practice. A GREAT practice that can lead to great things, but one can do another devotion instead. Like say, the Divine Mercy Chaplet.

More pointless ad hominem attacks and bringing other threads into this one. Besides which I didn’t say the rosary was compulsorary so I’ve no idea where that came from