Praying the rosary at Mass

[Mike30]

Yes, who, by his own words, was once a Latin Catholic. And I asked him why he is no longer.

**Agreed. But it also doesn’t give someone the right to come over and criticize the spirituality and practices of Traditional Latin Catholics.
I would never think to go to the Eastern Catholic forum and criticize their practices.
Like kissing icons during Liturgy. **

As do I. In fact I spent time in a Byzantine Parish. I found their Liturgy to be much more beautiful and reverent to the OF at my local Parish.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. This seems to be a dig, as if I don’t consider Catholics equal. We are all sinners. The practices are definitely different. As you alluded to by saying one can better feed certain people then the other practices.

I don’t think you’ll find an Eastern Catholic that would give up the Divine Liturgy for the OF you see at most Parishes.

Btw, the Ukrainian Priest/monk I spoke with at a nearby Parish didn’t have much good to say about the OF or the changes to Tradition after VII. He told me if I truly wanted Tradition to join their Church.

Unfortunately some of the Easterns do this on a rather regular basis. It got so bad at one point that a sticky was placed concerning the issue. It is still there by the way.

 

[mick321]

The same can be said of the abuses in the OF. So you guys shouldn’t be complaining about it if the priest or bishop is not complaining about it, right?

Absolutely correct, as YOU have asserted many times here at CAF.

You’ve managed to convince me that abuse is in the heart and mind of the observer.

Thank you sir, for enlightening my mind, and softening my heart.

 

[asia53]

I fundamentally disagree with the idea of going to Mass for personal prayer. The Mass is our public and community time for worshiping God together; it’s not a time when a bunch of people happen to be in the same building with a priest who happens to be saying Mass, which seems to be much more what you’re describing. The Eucharist is a celebration of the whole Body of Christ (CCC 1136).

I agree. Every Sunday before 11 AM Mass, I lead the Rosary. We pray the Rosary together before all Masses, including Daily.

Two older ladies (mid-60’s to early-70’s) will continue praying the Rosary 45 minutes after the Mass has started. They sat next to me once, I had to prompt them, when it was our turn to get into the Communion line. There are others who do this, not many. The two ladies come to mind, because this was a recent occurrence.

Being a curious type of person, two things come to mind-

1. 
   *]Were they taught to do this, or is it a personal preference?
   *]How can they participate in the Mass, pray the Rosary, or both?

 

[Brooklyn]

I wonder what the definition of ‘a service’ is in this context? What does it really mean?Just some observations in line with these thoughts …

Mass is a communal prayer.

It is not a crowd of people praying individually.

It is the community at work in worship, the focus needs to be on the common worship.

Visitors, of course, are not necessarily worshiping, they may be observing. For example an anthropologist might peek in and make a study of the community’s efforts, but be also quite detached. A film crew might be hired in to record the event. A curious neighbor might, with sincerely good intention, want to watch and perhaps gain some familiarity. Some children might not understand much.

But for the community of believers it is a prayerful common effort, and there should ideally be a common focus. We are saved in community, and we come together to worship together. This is why exercising private devotions during the greater part of Mass is counterproductive.

There is a nice explanation of the Mass here … I found it to be a pretty good brief description of what happens and what is intended.

Ah, you have just shown the vast difference between the OF and the EF. I would say it is virtually impossible to pray the rosary during the OF, because it is most definitely a communal worship. It forces you to pray with the community around you whether you want to or not because the priest is up at the altar directing everyone. The priest is basically speaking to the people and waiting for their response. Whereas in the EF, even in a high Mass, neither the priest nor anyone else intrudes on individual prayer, and in fact, the EF, I would say, promotes individual prayer. You can pay strict attention to what is going on at the altar and make all the responses that the servers say, or you can withdraw into your own individual prayer just between you and God. I have a very old prayer book dating to the 1890’s which actually follows the Mass and gives alternative prayers for the individual to say during the Mass. I have used it and found it very edifying.

So my response is no, you can’t pray the rosary during the OF, but no problem with the EF. I have actually heard priests recommend it. This is what Father John Zuholsdorf says:

I don’t think saying the Holy Rosary during Mass is a bad thing.

I think there are more perfect ways of participating. I generally think that remaining in the texts of Mass is better during Mass.

But, that said, there is not simply one acceptable manner of active participation at Mass. People can choose now this, now that method. You can following the texts closely. You can follow commentaries on the parts of Mass, sometimes in hand missals. You can say the Rosary. You can pray according to the four classic points of prayer: glorification of God, prayers of sorrow for sins, petitions, expressions of thanksgiving. You can focus on a sacred image.

Perhaps on this day you will need this method, and on that day some other.

What I would try to avoid is distraction. Your fruitful participation can be aided by having a regular routine, or even perhaps a bit of a plan before you go to church for Mass. Knowing what you are going to do today can help.

People have different spiritual needs when they enter the sacred precincts of the church. Different methods of participation can help them in the exigencies they are facing.

 

[mick321]

Going back to the Orans question that never got answered. So you won’t complain about people, out of their own will, do the Orans during the Our Father?

Speaking for myself only, I have no problem assuming the normative orans posture with every recitation of the Lord’s Prayer in Orthodox Churches.

I respectfully and steadfastly decline to use the orans position during any Roman Catholic service. It was never part of my formation as a lay Catholic - and the Lord KNOWS - I’m no priest.

 

[mick321]

Because people should be participating in Mass. The Mass is one hour a day, people can pray the Rosary the other 23 hours.

It would appear that you are disputing the writing of an obscure Christian author who instructs the faithful to “…pray without ceasing…”.1THES5:17

Please sir, tell me it ain’t so.

 

[mick321]

Quote: Originally Posted by mick321

Nice deflection here as well. Either he takes action to put an end to the perceived abuse or -by default - he establishes a norm for all future Masses offered in his presence.

Let the crying begin.

 

[mick321]

I agree. Every Sunday before 11 AM Mass, I lead the Rosary. We pray the Rosary together before all Masses, including Daily.

Two older ladies (mid-60’s to early-70’s) will continue praying the Rosary 45 minutes after the Mass has started. They sat next to me once, I had to prompt them, when it was our turn to get into the Communion line. There are others who do this, not many. The two ladies come to mind, because this was a recent occurrence.

Being a curious type of person, two things come to mind-

1. 
   *]Were they taught to do this, or is it a personal preference?
   *]How can they participate in the Mass, pray the Rosary, or both?

1. 
   To question #1: Who cares?
   To question #2: Apparently, with ease.

 

[JustaServant]

Let me just retire from this thread with this:
When I see people texting during Mass, carrying on whispered (at least in thier eyes) conversation during Mass, reading the bulletin during Mass, kids reading comic books during Mass, daydreaming during Mass. nodding off during Mass, its kinda hard for me to get upset at an old lady praying the Rosary.
The Novus Ordo does indeed require participation. But I don’t think we need to go all Gestapo on people praying when there are far worse things.
So, let it go.

 

[curlycool89]

Btw, the Ukrainian Priest/monk I spoke with at a nearby Parish didn’t have much good to say about the OF or the changes to Tradition after VII. He told me if I truly wanted Tradition to join their Church.

Funny, all the Ukrainian Catholics I’ve spoken to love Vatican II (more then Roman Catholics even some times I’d say).

Nice deflection here as well. Either he takes action to put an end to the perceived abuse or -by default - he establishes a norm for all future Masses offered in his presence.

Let the crying begin.

I answered the question by saying “Not in Mass”. The priest telling people outside of Mass doesn’t make his words mean any less.

To question #1: Who cares?

Well, if it is a tradition and counted as a tradition, then we should find out where this tradition came from in order to understand it better.

My assumption (and what I’ve heard from liturgical-historians) is that it evolved as what the laity did in the Mass because they had no idea what was going on. And apparently this evolved into the laity praying for the intentions of the priest during the Mass (which is odd in itself, considering that the Mass is our highest and most perfect prayer), or just as personal prayer during the Mass because there was nothing else to do.

Let me just retire from this thread with this:
When I see people texting during Mass, carrying on whispered (at least in thier eyes) conversation during Mass, reading the bulletin during Mass, kids reading comic books during Mass, daydreaming during Mass. nodding off during Mass, its kinda hard for me to get upset at an old lady praying the Rosary.
The Novus Ordo does indeed require participation. But I don’t think we need to go all Gestapo on people praying when there are far worse things.
So, let it go.

China defense. Just because X or Y is happening as does not mean that R is less important or not important. We can rank things as being “more” or “less bad”, but “less bad” doesn’t mean it isn’t still bad.

 

[Melchior_1]

One thing I wouldn’t mind hearing is when people speak of the externals surrounding Mass, how the externals are applicable when someone has the appearance of not investing within the Mass itself.

 

[Brooklyn]

One thing I wouldn’t mind hearing is when people speak of the externals surrounding Mass, how the externals are applicable when someone has the appearance of not investing within the Mass itself.

Again, this is the difference between the OF and the EF. The way the OF is structured, it is pretty much impossible to do anything but be “invested” in the “externals”, especially since most Masses are amplified, with priests even using wireless mikes. I couldn’t pray the Rosary if I wanted to. But the EF is structured so that even if you don’t know Latin and don’t understand all the words that are being said, you can still be very much a participant in the Mass through your own prayers. One of the beautiful things about the EF, in my opinion, is the silent Canon. When the great miracle of transubstantiation takes place and the priest holds the consecrated host up for adoration, I feel a very personal connection with our Lord. Everything and everyone else disappears.

In the EF, I see people who kneel during the entire Mass. It may seem like they are not participating at all, but in all probability, they are more actively participating than those of us who are “invested” in the “externals.” But again, because the EF is so conducive to personal prayer, unless someone is making a lot of noise and trying to be disruptive, the actions of other people do not have any effect on me. I know that is not true in the OF, since as has been pointed out on here, the OF is much more of a community action.

I guess the bottom line to your question is - don’t judge others. You can’t read their hearts.

 

[Ohana]

When I participate in the Mass. I do the following.
Make the sign of the cross with the priest which reminds me I am a baptized person coming into the presence of God along with the community surrounding me. Crying babies included.

Participate in the penitential rite, bringing to mind the sins I have committed since my last Mass, and letting God know I am sorry for them. When we move into the Gloria, I sing it with joy, even with my old crinkly voice.

When we move into the liturgy of the word, it is a time to listen to scripture, sing a usually very meaningful psalm to God, then rise for the Gospel with alleluias. I am reminded that hearing the word and the homily following is instructive; things to take to heart in my living out my faith in the coming week. One homilst said once that sometimes we just “hear a word” and that is what we are meant to carry with us into our week-that it is God speaking to us. Oh yes.

The creed is always an exercise in remembering my faith The prayers joined with my community are powerful in their plea to the Lord for our needs. During the ensuing offeratory, we also offer our selves, talents and treasure for the good of the church and all mankind. We are offered to the Father along with our saviour Jesus. It is a beautiful moment of joining with him in adoration of the Father.

Entering into the most solemn part of the Mass, we ask the Father, in the person of our priest, to change the gifts we offer into the body and blood of our Lord. We pray for the living and the dead, We pray for the whole Chuch.

The consecration is truly sublime, when Jesus is present in His Body and Blood. We say My Lord and My God. I was at a Mass in another community not long ago, and the whole congregation said that our loud at the elevation of each element. They were a different culture and community from our own, but we definitely were joined.

When we go into the Communion rite after the great Amen, we say the Our Father together, committing ourselves once again to adoration, confession, obedience, supplication, and thanksgiving. We acknowledge the presence of Christ, the Lamb of God, and declare our unworthinness to receive him, but willingness to be healed.

We receive communion, and spend a brief time, (too brief often) in meditation.

Once again filled, we are sent out to evangelize the world, to take the word of God with us as we go.

Now: I understand that Mary always leads us to Jesus. If the above is also happening for you in saying the Rosary during Mass, and it certainly sounds like that for some of you, then alleluia.

I prefer, without judging what others do, to participate in the Mass as I described. Do I miss:‘I go to the altar of God, the joy of my youth’ as an opener - a bit, But the Sign of the Cross ain’t bad.

 

[TimothyH]

While the argument goes on, there will continue to be those who realize that just as Jesus Christ was made physically present through Mary two thousand years ago in Palestine, the same Jesus Christ is made sacramentally present through Mary now, today, at every Mass.

As the argument continues, there will be those who understand that just as Christ’s physical body was made present through Mary two thousand years ago in Palestine, his mystical body is today made present througy Mary whenever “two or more are gathered in my name.”

And these will continue to ask She through whom the grace of the Eucharist comes to us to “Show unto us the Blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus” at all times. These will quietly ignore the arguments, will continue to pray the venerable beads, and will continue to ask Mary to interceed on behalf of her children - all of us, including you - who are the members of her Son’s body, the Church, day and night, at Mass and away.

Quite frankly, there really isn’t much anyone can do to stop it.

-Tim-

 

[Thomas_Casey]

People are getting nasty