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southknight
Guest
Are we instructed to pray to angels and saints anywhere in the bible? And if so where would it appear?
Sincerely,
Southknight
Sincerely,
Southknight
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AdesteFideles
Guest
In Scripture, prayer is a form of worship, and in Scripture, we are given clear teaching that we are not to worship angels in any way, shape, or form. Moreover, we will find nowhere in Scripture where praying to angels is ever allowed, or is ever spoken of. No one ever did it.
Now, the Church says there are different levels of prayer. You’ll hear arguments like, well, there are different levels of worship. You’ve got hyperdulia, and dulia and latria and all these others. However, when apologists are challenged to look at how those words are used in Scripture, they will often simply default to appealing to the authority of the Church to establish and interpret Tradition, and praying to angels is a Tradition.
Now, the Church says there are different levels of prayer. You’ll hear arguments like, well, there are different levels of worship. You’ve got hyperdulia, and dulia and latria and all these others. However, when apologists are challenged to look at how those words are used in Scripture, they will often simply default to appealing to the authority of the Church to establish and interpret Tradition, and praying to angels is a Tradition.
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houseofsaul
Guest
Where is catholic tradition are we ever taught to “Pray to Angels”?
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patrick457
Guest
Does “St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle…” or “Angel of God, my guardian dear…” count?
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Dorothy
Guest
Yes, they certainly count.
And, at the end of September, and beginning of October we will have a special day for the Archangels Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael. Then there is a special day for the Guardian Angels.
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KP3243
Guest
This is from Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P. who answered this question a few years ago on this blog:
The angels are spiritual beings who have a free will and an intellect that is far superior to our. The evil ones dwell in Hell and the holy ones dwell in Heaven and are therefor considered to be saints. Whoever is in heaven is a saint. God uses them as messengers, guardians and all-around helpers to us—as well as reflecting His glory.
In the book of Tobit 12:12 the Archangel Raphael said to Tobias, “So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you would bury the dead.” In Tobit 12: 14b-16 we read further, “And at the same time God sent me to heal you and Sarah your daughter-in-law. I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the Lord. The two of them were shaken; they fell face down, for they were afraid.”
For more, see “Angel” at the original Catholic Encyclopedia
The angels are spiritual beings who have a free will and an intellect that is far superior to our. The evil ones dwell in Hell and the holy ones dwell in Heaven and are therefor considered to be saints. Whoever is in heaven is a saint. God uses them as messengers, guardians and all-around helpers to us—as well as reflecting His glory.
In the book of Tobit 12:12 the Archangel Raphael said to Tobias, “So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you would bury the dead.” In Tobit 12: 14b-16 we read further, “And at the same time God sent me to heal you and Sarah your daughter-in-law. I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the Lord. The two of them were shaken; they fell face down, for they were afraid.”
For more, see “Angel” at the original Catholic Encyclopedia
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Daizies
Guest
One of the biggest misunderstandings about prayer is in the definitions.
Now, in modern parlance, pray has taken on an exclusively religious meaning, virtually synonymous with worship. If you look at the original meaning of the word, it meant a humble request. When you read things written in the 1800’s and a person says to another person “I pray you, do this for me” he is not worshiping that person, nor seeing them as some sort of deity, but rather making a humble request for help.
Personally, I have found that the easiest way to understand the Catholic concept of prayer is to revert to the original meaning of the word, rather than using the very restrictive modern definition. It makes a lot more sense that way.
Now, in modern parlance, pray has taken on an exclusively religious meaning, virtually synonymous with worship. If you look at the original meaning of the word, it meant a humble request. When you read things written in the 1800’s and a person says to another person “I pray you, do this for me” he is not worshiping that person, nor seeing them as some sort of deity, but rather making a humble request for help.
Personally, I have found that the easiest way to understand the Catholic concept of prayer is to revert to the original meaning of the word, rather than using the very restrictive modern definition. It makes a lot more sense that way.
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houseofsaul
Guest
But neither verse state that th eprayer was said to Raphael, merely he brought the prayer record of Sarah before God and that God sent Raphael to aid Sarah. Neither state she actually “prayed to” Raphael. Too many times in the Bible does it speak AGAINST praying to anyone other than GOD. i.e. Daniel.
Requesting a saint to Pray for us and praying to are two completely different things.
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mgoforth
Guest
Here is a “short” list 
: openbible.info/topics/praying_for_each_other
These verses all encourage us to pray for each other. But do they encourage us to pray to saints? I think it’s logical, if we also look at some other verses from Revelation:
“When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” Revelation 5:8
“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” Revelation 8: 3-4
So we have evidence from Scripture that the saints are saying prayers even in Heaven. Who or what would they be praying for? Not for themselves…why would they need to? They’re already in Heaven and already have everything they could ever desire in God’s presence. So logically, they must be praying for those of us still on Earth.
As far as angels, we have this verse:
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.” Matthew 18:10
So Jesus Himself said that we have our own personal angels - guardian angels - who are in God’s presence in Heaven. So why would we have angels assigned to us, except to help us? I can’t think of any other reason. So these angels must be praying for us as well.
The only question remaining is whether we can ask the saints and angels to pray for us. I don’t see why not…? We ask people we know to pray for us and vice versa. Why not ask the saints and angels as well?
The whole difficulty is a Protestant misunderstanding of what Catholics do when we pray to saints and angels. They hear the word “pray” and freak out, accusing us of worshiping someone other than God. This is flat out ridiculous. Praying just means “asking”. As in the phrase “pray tell” - meaning “please tell”. Prayer is not worship, they are distinct.
: openbible.info/topics/praying_for_each_otherThese verses all encourage us to pray for each other. But do they encourage us to pray to saints? I think it’s logical, if we also look at some other verses from Revelation:
“When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” Revelation 5:8
“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” Revelation 8: 3-4
So we have evidence from Scripture that the saints are saying prayers even in Heaven. Who or what would they be praying for? Not for themselves…why would they need to? They’re already in Heaven and already have everything they could ever desire in God’s presence. So logically, they must be praying for those of us still on Earth.
As far as angels, we have this verse:
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.” Matthew 18:10
So Jesus Himself said that we have our own personal angels - guardian angels - who are in God’s presence in Heaven. So why would we have angels assigned to us, except to help us? I can’t think of any other reason. So these angels must be praying for us as well.
The only question remaining is whether we can ask the saints and angels to pray for us. I don’t see why not…? We ask people we know to pray for us and vice versa. Why not ask the saints and angels as well?
The whole difficulty is a Protestant misunderstanding of what Catholics do when we pray to saints and angels. They hear the word “pray” and freak out, accusing us of worshiping someone other than God. This is flat out ridiculous. Praying just means “asking”. As in the phrase “pray tell” - meaning “please tell”. Prayer is not worship, they are distinct.
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patrick457
Guest
Reminds me of a question I asked to someone a while ago. “I pray you, sir, precariously: pray tell further why you think this use of ‘to pray’ is incorrect.” I pray to anyone that they not imprecate me; I deprecate against such a thing. Pray grant me deprecation for this silly act involving my little orations. Shall I get myself to an oratory?
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houseofsaul
Guest
In your own Words: The only question remaining is whether we can ask the saints and angels to pray for us. I don’t see why not…?Here is a “short” list
These verses all encourage us to pray for each other. But do they encourage us to pray to saints? I think it’s logical, if we also look at some other verses from Revelation:
"When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Revelation 5:8
"Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand." Revelation 8: 3-4
So we have evidence from Scripture that the saints are saying prayers even in Heaven. Who or what would they be praying for? Not for themselves…why would they need to? They’re already in Heaven and already have everything they could ever desire in God’s presence. So logically, they must be praying for those of us still on Earth.
As far as angels, we have this verse:
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 18:10
So Jesus Himself said that we have our own personal angels - guardian angels - who are in God’s presence in Heaven. So why would we have angels assigned to us, except to help us? I can’t think of any other reason. So these angels must be praying for us as well.
The only question remaining is whether we can ask the saints and angels to pray for us. I don’t see why not…? We ask people we know to pray for us and vice versa. Why not ask the saints and angels as well?
The whole difficulty is a Protestant misunderstanding of what Catholics do when we pray to saints and angels. They hear the word “pray” and freak out, accusing us of worshiping someone other than God. This is flat out ridiculous. Praying just means “asking”. As in the phrase “pray tell” - meaning “please tell”. Prayer is not worship, they are distinct.
I dont see a problem with asking others to pray FOR us and WATCH OVER us. Just a problem with PRAYING TO…Big difference. COMING from a PROTESTANT background, I know too well how things can be misconstrued about the Catholic Church. That’s why I feel it’s IMPERATIVE that in order for others to understand, we must choose our words wisely. Too many times I have misunderstood things because members of the Catholic Church did not understand or know enough about their own beliefs that when they attempted to explain said beliefs, that they did more harm than good.
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asia53
Guest
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houseofsaul
Guest
When folks ask if Catholics PRAY TO MARY and SAINTS, they are not asking for a definition of the word PRAY of the word from long ago or in present day .
They are asking for clarification…when you say things like PRAY didnt have the same meaning long ago as it does in Present Day, you are only causing confusion and the Bible speaks against that. In essence you are also saying that when the word Pray and Prayer are read in the Bible that was written long ago, it doesnt carry the same meaning as today.
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mgoforth
Guest
Great…so let’s clarify things right now. I ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray for me, along with St. Joseph (my patron saint), St. Michael the Archangel, St. Thomas Aquinas, and others. I do not worship any of them - but I do admire and respect them greatly. For me, there’s no problem saying that I “pray to” them, because I understand exactly what that means…and what it doesn’t mean. Call it whatever you like, but you should definitely “seek their intercession” on your behalf because it can help you get into Heaven.
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patrick457
Guest
For the benefit of us moderns:Reminds me of a question I asked to someone a while ago. “I pray you, sir, precariously: pray tell further why you think this use of ‘to pray’ is incorrect.” I pray to anyone that they not imprecate me; I deprecate against such a thing. Pray grant me deprecation for this silly act involving my little orations. Shall I get myself to an oratory?
“I ask you [this], sir, depending on your intention [to answer or not]: please tell further why you think this use of ‘to pray’ is incorrect.” I ask anyone that they not curse me [for being such an utter turnip-head]; I pray [to the Lord] against such a thing. Please grant me pardon for this silly act involving my little speeches [which do not qualify as ‘speeches’ in any sense of the word].
I pray pardon, your worship.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Found these on this topic with a simple search of the Ask an Apologist forum.
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houseofsaul
Guest
It is good that you understand what you mean, but others who ask need to know what you mean as well. The bible cautions against being a stumbling block.Great…so let’s clarify things right now. I ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray for me, along with St. Joseph (my patron saint), St. Michael the Archangel, St. Thomas Aquinas, and others. I do not worship any of them - but I do admire and respect them greatly. For me, there’s no problem saying that I “pray to” them, because I understand exactly what that means…and what it doesn’t mean. Call it whatever you like, but you should definitely “seek their intercession” on your behalf because it can help you get into Heaven.
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KP3243
Guest
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CleverUserName
Guest
C
CleverUserName
Guest
Excellent postHere is a “short” list
These verses all encourage us to pray for each other. But do they encourage us to pray to saints? I think it’s logical, if we also look at some other verses from Revelation:
"When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Revelation 5:8
"Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand." Revelation 8: 3-4
So we have evidence from Scripture that the saints are saying prayers even in Heaven. Who or what would they be praying for? Not for themselves…why would they need to? They’re already in Heaven and already have everything they could ever desire in God’s presence. So logically, they must be praying for those of us still on Earth.
As far as angels, we have this verse:
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 18:10
So Jesus Himself said that we have our own personal angels - guardian angels - who are in God’s presence in Heaven. So why would we have angels assigned to us, except to help us? I can’t think of any other reason. So these angels must be praying for us as well.
The only question remaining is whether we can ask the saints and angels to pray for us. I don’t see why not…? We ask people we know to pray for us and vice versa. Why not ask the saints and angels as well?
The whole difficulty is a Protestant misunderstanding of what Catholics do when we pray to saints and angels. They hear the word “pray” and freak out, accusing us of worshiping someone other than God. This is flat out ridiculous. Praying just means “asking”. As in the phrase “pray tell” - meaning “please tell”. Prayer is not worship, they are distinct.
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