Praying to Angels and Saints

[houseofsaul]

Requesting a saint to Pray for us and praying to are two completely different things.​

Are you suggesting that people are praying to saints and confusing them with God?

Some people do “pray to” Saints and do “pray to” Mary. Some even worship Mary. When I was first exposed to the Catholic Church and began attending and going to Inquiry classes and Bible studies, this very thing came up. I said I believe we should most definitely honor Mary as she was hand picked by God to be the Mother of Jesus. I dont even see a problem with requesting her to Pray for us, the saints as well. However I do have a problem to “pray to” a saint or to Mary for them to answer my prayer.

The woman told me she did “pray to” and Worship Mary. I told her she was wrong. I still believe that. It’s just that with so many beautiful things of the Catholic Church being misconstrued , I believe it is our duty to explain in such a way that the person inquiring fully understands what we are doing and why we do it.

Because Practicing Catholics answered my inquiries without trying to help me understand, it kept me from taking that step into the Catholic Church for the last decade.

It’s like answering a child’s question with: Because I said so. Just because. that’s just the way it is. The meaning of the word is different than it used to be. i.e. gay used to mean happy, now it refers to an alternate lifestyle.

Better we educate in a way so that the student understands than to leaving them with more questions. By not trying to answer the question, makes it sounds as if we are avoiding or have something to hide, or worse yet, what the Protestants believe about the Catholics is true.

 

[KP3243]

I would agree with you that no one should worship Mary. Where I think confusion comes in is that Catholics know that when we pray to Mary we know our prayers are going directly to Jesus and part of that is scared tradition knowing that she has always led us to Jesus in her human life and her heavenly life. Saint Louis de Montfort has said about Mary “God the Son imparted to his mother all that he gained by his life and death, namely, his infinite merits and his eminent virtues. He made her the treasurer of all his Father had given him as heritage. Through her he applies his merits to his members and through her he transmits his virtues and distributes his graces. She is his mystical channel, his aqueduct, through which he causes his mercies to flow gently and abundantly.”

 

[Carguy76]

I have had this question come up several times, and in each case I simply explained to the non-Catholic that we are asking the saint to pray for us, the same way that we would ask a friend or family member to pray for us in a time of need (illness, loss of a loved one, etc.). This simple explaination has always been sufficient, and for those who refuse to accept this as logical or resonable, they are most likely not willing to accept any answer given. Church teaching is very explicit that no other entity is to be worshiped other than God, but asking for prayer from the living and dead is totally acceptable. While I think it is splitting hairs as to how we describe this act, saying praying too, or asking for intersession, as Catholics, we should do our best to be correct in verbage, and be quick to educate others to quell misinformation about our faith. The mystery surrounding our faith causes confusion and bad feelings that are often misguided. As deciples, we are obligated to educate about and be examples of the Catholic faith.

 

[Nelka]

ourladyswarriors.org/prayer/michael.htm

 

[mgoforth]

Because Practicing Catholics answered my inquiries without trying to help me understand, it kept me from taking that step into the Catholic Church for the last decade.

It’s like answering a child’s question with: Because I said so. Just because. that’s just the way it is.

I’m sorry that you didn’t feel ready to convert for so long because of this. I can sympathize with your frustration, but…I also wonder what might happen after you convert if you discover there’s another teaching of the Church that you think may be wrong? I think an important part of developing one’s faith is to realize that “because I said so” can be a perfectly valid answer, when the entity that’s “saying so” is the Church. The Church has been given the authority to bind and lose in Heaven and on Earth, and that’s not dependent on the complete intellectual understanding of Her members.

Understanding these things fully is great, when we’re able to…but trusting what we’re told by Christ’s Church, even when we don’t understand, is more important.

"Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” John 20: 27-29

 

[houseofsaul]

I would agree with you that no one should worship Mary. Where I think confusion comes in is that Catholics know that when we pray to Mary we know our prayers are going directly to Jesus and part of that is scared tradition knowing that she has always led us to Jesus in her human life and her heavenly life. Saint Louis de Montfort has said about Mary “God the Son imparted to his mother all that he gained by his life and death, namely, his infinite merits and his eminent virtues. He made her the treasurer of all his Father had given him as heritage. Through her he applies his merits to his members and through her he transmits his virtues and distributes his graces. She is his mystical channel, his aqueduct, through which he causes his mercies to flow gently and abundantly.”

And in your own words you have just made my point.

**that Catholics know **that when we pray to Mary we know our prayers are going directly to Jesus and part of that is scared tradition knowing that she has always led us to Jesus in her human life and her heavenly life.

Just because fellow Catholics know, doesn’t mean the rest of world does. And 9 times out of 10, it is a non-catholic asking or accusing.

 

[houseofsaul]

I have had this question come up several times, and in each case I simply explained to the non-Catholic that we are asking the saint to pray for us, the same way that we would ask a friend or family member to pray for us in a time of need (illness, loss of a loved one, etc.). This simple explaination has always been sufficient, and for those who refuse to accept this as logical or resonable, they are most likely not willing to accept any answer given. Church teaching is very explicit that no other entity is to be worshiped other than God, but asking for prayer from the living and dead is totally acceptable. While I think it is splitting hairs as to how we describe this act, saying praying too, or asking for intersession, as Catholics, we should do our best to be correct in verbage, and be quick to educate others to quell misinformation about our faith. The mystery surrounding our faith causes confusion and bad feelings that are often misguided. As deciples, we are obligated to educate about and be examples of the Catholic faith.

My sentiments Exactly.

 

[houseofsaul]

I’m sorry that you didn’t feel ready to convert for so long because of this. I can sympathize with your frustration, but…I also wonder what might happen after you convert if you discover there’s another teaching of the Church that you think may be wrong? I think an important part of developing one’s faith is to realize that “because I said so” can be a perfectly valid answer, when the entity that’s “saying so” is the Church. The Church has been given the authority to bind and lose in Heaven and on Earth, and that’s not dependent on the complete intellectual understanding of Her members.

Understanding these things fully is great, when we’re able to…but trusting what we’re told by Christ’s Church, even when we don’t understand, is more important.

"Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” John 20: 27-29

Believe me, Mary and the Saints were not my only obstacle. And while your answer Because the Church says so would work for a fellow Catholic, i.e Child in CCD, this answer would not suffice the outside world looking in. Being raised Protestant, that answer was dished out a lot when I would question why we believe or interpret a particular scripture that way. We were raised to accept the interpretation, the end. And I was told many times we had it right and the Catholics had it wrong. And Yet there was never any discussion, no explanation. Just because.

I intend to learn as much as I can prior to being accepted into the Church. I do not take it or my beliefs lightly, hence the reason I am not yet a member. I have signed up for RCIA again this fall and Lord Willing I will be in Full Communion on Easter. If not, well I will just have to keep plugging along until I do understand. Never jump in unless you know the depths of the water.

 

[CaptFun]

Go ahead. Pray to Albert Pujols and Drew Brees and see what it gets you! :tsktsk:

Sure it works sometimes. But I’m not sure they really had anything to do with it.

My prayers to Pujols were running at 50 percent when he was a*** Cardinal … and they’re up to 67 percent now that he’s an Angel ***… :whacky:

But from now ON I’m sticking to Jesus. (Who says ‘no’ sometimes, but in that case I’m sure he’s got something BETTER in mind).

On a more serious note - The Lord has delegated power to His Church (hence his saints) and to his Angels (who know his will and don’t do things counter to it). He also desires us to have loving relationships with one another. To help each other. To ASK help from each other.

Saints are part of the body of Christ. Not to be put in PLACE of God of course, but great gifts from God that are to be accepted from Him with joy and thanks.

St. Michael is someone we can have a relationship with, ask things of, and try to emulate (fighting for God when the situation calls for it). Done right, you do not lose sight of God at all but more deeply love Him.

Patron saints have been designated by the Church Jesus founded in His name and power and which the Holy Spirit guides.

The Church has the keys and has ruled on such things.

It no more insults the Lord to address one of His saints (part of His body now free of earthly temptations who behold God face-to-face and are now more than EVER happy to
carry out his plan of salvation for their brothers and sisters struggling here on Earth) than calling your Congressperson’s secretary would insult your Congressperson.

Now we don’t HAVE to pray to Saints or Angels ever (and when we do … it is for intercession, never worshipping them as if they are a deity themselves). And if one cannot pray to a patron saint without losing sight of God altogether … well yeah … err on the side of caution and keep that First Commandment! :dancing:

Our Lord is Our Father. ** OUR** Father. He wants us to be family on our way to finding the wonders of HIM more deeply. Each person He has created is part of revealing that mystery. That First Commandment has more to do with Him wanting us to know the truth of the matter - than portraying God as a megalomaniacal egomaniac who brooks no errant thought to be directed to other than HIM! Or he’ll be really, REALLY MAD and … hooo …
you don’t even want to know.

If that has been your idea of Our Lord … look to the crucifix … or the manger … and remind yourself who our God REALLY is.

Of course there IS an Angel who tempts us to view God as our enemy. He fooled Eve and Adam. His artful lies still have a pull on our fallen hearts too, so we need God’s grace to be delivered of it.

As for Satanic “Saints” - I don’t know of anyone who PRAYS to them … but there do seem to be an endless supply of false messiahs in the world at any time. People look to them for answers, solutions, inspiration and to give their zealous support to.

Sometimes these are easily spotted. I will not NAME one. But when I see a national leader (say) addressing adoring throngs with pictures of himself towering several stories high or with a big video screen giving him that “Big Brother” LOOK and then acting like a miniature god - my “danger” radar goes up. Even when they’re not called “our Fuehrer” or “our Chairman” or some other “greater than us!” title.

We may also drift toward more harmless “silly gods”. LA Angel slugger Albert Pujols and New Orleans Saint QB Drew Brees both acknowledge God publicly by the way – but sports stars can take the place of God as number one in some folks’ hearts (ours?) on a bad day. Or a favorite movie star etc., etc.

I myself have “friendships” with saints, some of whom I should really re-visit in fact, and St. Michael. And Our Blessed Mother is the best, always available prayer pal when I’m praying alone and would like that "two or more gathered in (Jesus’) name … " intimacy with HIM being in “our midst.”

On a brick outside of Anaheim Stadium our family gave thanks for an unnamed miracle. The brick reads “Jesus, St. Jude 10Q” (thank you)" and our family name. That acknowledges that a saints’ power (which the saint DOES have!) is power exercised - “In the NAME of the Father, and of the SON, and of the HOLY SPIRIT!” :extrahappy::yup:

Like this post … I hope my spiritual life journey goes from lightly silly to more serious and deeply meaningful in the end. *** Our friends, the saints and angels are God sent to help us.*** The Church – that He founded and sent forth to teach and gave the keys to bind and loose things on heaven and Earth – assures us of this truth.

Don’t second guess HIS judgement.

 

[mgoforth]

Believe me, Mary and the Saints were not my only obstacle. And while your answer Because the Church says so would work for a fellow Catholic, i.e Child in CCD, this answer would not suffice the outside world looking in. Being raised Protestant, that answer was dished out a lot when I would question why we believe or interpret a particular scripture that way. We were raised to accept the interpretation, the end. And I was told many times we had it right and the Catholics had it wrong. And Yet there was never any discussion, no explanation. Just because.

Fair enough. I can definitely understand why that answer carries a negative connotation for you. But now that you’re entering the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church you can put your mind at ease and trust her completely…even when you don’t understand completely. And if anyone thinks “because I said so” is just an answer for little children, remember these words of our Lord:

“At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18: 1-6

Humility…understanding that we will never understand it all.

 

[houseofsaul]

Go ahead. Pray to Albert Pujols and Drew Brees and see what it gets you! :tsktsk:

Sure it works sometimes. But I’m not sure they really had anything to do with it.

My prayers to Pujols were running at 50 percent when he was a*** Cardinal … and they’re up to 67 percent now that he’s an Angel ***… :whacky:

But from now ON I’m sticking to Jesus. (Who says ‘no’ sometimes, but in that case I’m sure he’s got something BETTER in mind).

On a more serious note - The Lord has delegated power to His Church (hence his saints) and to his Angels (who know his will and don’t do things counter to it). He also desires us to have loving relationships with one another. To help each other. To ASK help from each other.

Saints are part of the body of Christ. Not to be put in PLACE of God of course, but great gifts from God that are to be accepted from Him with joy and thanks.

St. Michael is someone we can have a relationship with, ask things of, and try to emulate (fighting for God when the situation calls for it). Done right, you do not lose sight of God at all but more deeply love Him.

Patron saints have been designated by the Church Jesus founded in His name and power and which the Holy Spirit guides.

The Church has the keys and has ruled on such things.

It no more insults the Lord to address one of His saints (part of His body now free of earthly temptations who behold God face-to-face and are now more than EVER happy to
carry out his plan of salvation for their brothers and sisters struggling here on Earth) than calling your Congressperson’s secretary would insult your Congressperson.

Now we don’t HAVE to pray to Saints or Angels ever (and when we do … it is for intercession, never worshipping them as if they are a deity themselves). And if one cannot pray to a patron saint without losing sight of God altogether … well yeah … err on the side of caution and keep that First Commandment! :dancing:

Our Lord is Our Father. ** OUR** Father. He wants us to be family on our way to finding the wonders of HIM more deeply. Each person He has created is part of revealing that mystery. That First Commandment has more to do with Him wanting us to know the truth of the matter - than portraying God as a megalomaniacal egomaniac who brooks no errant thought to be directed to other than HIM! Or he’ll be really, REALLY MAD and … hooo …
you don’t even want to know.

If that has been your idea of Our Lord … look to the crucifix … or the manger … and remind yourself who our God REALLY is.

Of course there IS an Angel who tempts us to view God as our enemy. He fooled Eve and Adam. His artful lies still have a pull on our fallen hearts too, so we need God’s grace to be delivered of it.

As for Satanic “Saints” - I don’t know of anyone who PRAYS to them … but there do seem to be an endless supply of false messiahs in the world at any time. People look to them for answers, solutions, inspiration and to give their zealous support to.

Sometimes these are easily spotted. I will not NAME one. But when I see a national leader (say) addressing adoring throngs with pictures of himself towering several stories high or with a big video screen giving him that “Big Brother” LOOK and then acting like a miniature god - my “danger” radar goes up. Even when they’re not called “our Fuehrer” or “our Chairman” or some other “greater than us!” title.

We may also drift toward more harmless “silly gods”. LA Angel slugger Albert Pujols and New Orleans Saint QB Drew Brees both acknowledge God publicly by the way – but sports stars can take the place of God as number one in some folks’ hearts (ours?) on a bad day. Or a favorite movie star etc., etc.

I myself have “friendships” with saints, some of whom I should really re-visit in fact, and St. Michael. And Our Blessed Mother is the best, always available prayer pal when I’m praying alone and would like that "two or more gathered in (Jesus’) name … " intimacy with HIM being in “our midst.”

On a brick outside of Anaheim Stadium our family gave thanks for an unnamed miracle. The brick reads “Jesus, St. Jude 10Q” (thank you)" and our family name. That acknowledges that a saints’ power (which the saint DOES have!) is power exercised - “In the NAME of the Father, and of the SON, and of the HOLY SPIRIT!” :extrahappy::yup:

Like this post … I hope my spiritual life journey goes from lightly silly to more serious and deeply meaningful in the end. *** Our friends, the saints and angels are God sent to help us.*** The Church – that He founded and sent forth to teach and gave the keys to bind and loose things on heaven and Earth – assures us of this truth.

Don’t second guess HIS judgement.

The bible says the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. I have no problem “calling on a Saint” to PRAY FOR ME. I will not PRAY TO said Saint to answer my PRAYER.

All in the verbage and one’s personal belief.

 

[houseofsaul]

Fair enough. I can definitely understand why that answer carries a negative connotation for you. But now that you’re entering the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church you can put your mind at ease and trust her completely…even when you don’t understand completely. And if anyone thinks “because I said so” is just an answer for little children, remember these words of our Lord:

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." Matthew 18: 1-6

Humility…understanding that we will never understand it all.

Thanks for understanding my point of view. God Bless.

 

[KP3243]

And in your own words you have just made my point.

**that Catholics know **that when we pray to Mary we know our prayers are going directly to Jesus and part of that is scared tradition knowing that she has always led us to Jesus in her human life and her heavenly life.

Just because fellow Catholics know, doesn’t mean the rest of world does. And 9 times out of 10, it is a non-catholic asking or accusing.

We typically aren’t asked we are usually accused of something that we don’t do and have never done as a body in the 2000 years we have existed. It is just as perplexing to a Catholic to be accused of worshiping Mary in place of God and being accused of idolatry by a non-Catholic since there is no basis for the accusation to begin with. As if Jesus and the Holy Spirit would allow the Church to tolerate idolatry and worship of someone other than God is what we think when we get accused of something egregiously heinous like that. Just because Catholics don’t know which Protestants understand the communion of saints and the mystical body of Christ it certainly doesn’t mean we are trying not to explain things to them we just don’t understand where they would get that from. I mean the Church doesn’t allow a person to be Canonized a Saint until they have two miracles that are attributed to their intercession because that is the only way we would know for certain that are in fact in heaven. Honestly, it is a completely foreign concept to most Catholics that people don’t understand why and how we can pray to saints for assistance, in fact I bet there would be that a good number of Catholics don’t even know there are people out there don’t believe in the communion of saints it is such basic part of our faith and has been. I live in upstate New York on one street alone in a 5 mile stretch there are two mega churches that have about 5,000-10,000 parishioners and a basilica and the basilica is about two miles away from the Cathedral which is the Bishop’s church and the largest church parishioner-wise in the diocese and the Cathedral is less than a mile away from two smaller churches north and south of it. There are not too many people around that aren’t on the same page so when you throw something like you worship Mary and you commit idolatry at them they are dumbfounded and everyone they know is dumbfounded.

 

[CaptFun]

The bible says the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. I have no problem “calling on a Saint” to PRAY FOR ME. I will not PRAY TO said Saint to answer my PRAYER.

All in the verbage and one’s personal belief.

I agree with all four of your sentences. You don’t even have to do sentence number two.

I don’t go much further. Certainly I don’t confuse a saint with GOD. But in about the same way as I might ask a Christian friend “Could you pray for me, I need $5 right NOW …” OR
“Could I borrow $5 from you until tomorrow” and not offend God’s dignity a whit (nor doubt HIS power to deliver me too); I might address a prayer to a saint similarly.

I suppose there is a risk for those who barely have faith or the prone-to-be-superstitious folks. And they shouldn’t lead themselves into temptation.

Put another way, if I am asked by someone to help them, I probably won’t sound surprised and give them a studied lecture in the sufficiency of God’s omnipotent power to do anything. I’d just say yes and help. On a bad day, I might beg off or give an excuse - but not that “Ask the Lord” one.

Apologies houseofsaul, I can go on (andonandonandon) if I’m not careful. And I’m not.
If there’s a nugget of gold here, praise God! The darkness and dirt shrug off as part of the “mine”.

 

[houseofsaul]

We typically aren’t asked we are usually accused of something that we don’t do and have never done as a body in the 2000 years we have existed. It is just as perplexing to a Catholic to be accused of worshiping Mary in place of God and being accused of idolatry by a non-Catholic since there is no basis for the accusation to begin with. As if Jesus and the Holy Spirit would allow the Church to tolerate idolatry and worship of someone other than God is what we think when we get accused of something egregiously heinous like that. Just because Catholics don’t know which Protestants understand the communion of saints and the mystical body of Christ it certainly doesn’t mean we are trying not to explain things to them we just don’t understand where they would get that from. I mean the Church doesn’t allow a person to be Canonized a Saint until they have two miracles that are attributed to their intercession because that is the only way we would know for certain that are in fact in heaven. Honestly, it is a completely foreign concept to most Catholics that people don’t understand why and how we can pray to saints for assistance, in fact I bet there would be that a good number of Catholics don’t even know there are people out there don’t believe in the communion of saints it is such basic part of our faith and has been. I live in upstate New York on one street alone in a 5 mile stretch there are two mega churches that have about 5,000-10,000 parishioners and a basilica and the basilica is about two miles away from the Cathedral which is the Bishop’s church and the largest church parishioner-wise in the diocese and the Cathedral is less than a mile away from two smaller churches north and south of it. There are not too many people around that aren’t on the same page so when you throw something like you worship Mary and you commit idolatry at them they are dumbfounded and everyone they know is dumbfounded.

Kudos that upstate NY has such a strong Catholic community where you feel it would be common knowledge of the Catholic Practices. However not everyone lives in that kind of community. Just like the Catholic Community, the Protestants too have strong beliefs that they hold sacred and true and thus dont understand as you feel they should. Just because a Church stands for something and holds its beliefs in high regard does not mean that ALL of its followers hold them as sacred.

Why would someone believe that catholics worship Mary? Because in the Southern Bible belt, where I was first introduced to the Catholic Church and began attending Bible Study and making inquiries abourt the Church a Practicing Catholic woman in the group told me she did worship Mary. So yes while the Church is against it, it cannot control every parishioner.

 

[patrick457]

Kudos that upstate NY has such a strong Catholic community where you feel it would be common knowledge of the Catholic Practices. However not everyone lives in that kind of community. Just like the Catholic Community, the Protestants too have strong beliefs that they hold sacred and true and thus dont understand as you feel they should. Just because a Church stands for something and holds its beliefs in high regard does not mean that ALL of its followers hold them as sacred.

Why would someone believe that catholics worship Mary? Because in the Southern Bible belt, where I was first introduced to the Catholic Church and began attending Bible Study and making inquiries abourt the Church a Practicing Catholic woman in the group told me she did worship Mary. So yes while the Church is against it, it cannot control every parishioner.

Just goes to show that the folks here in CAF are not necessarily indicative of how other Catholics think and act. Now, I do wonder what she meant by ‘worship’…

 

[houseofsaul]

Just goes to show that the folks here in CAF are not necessarily indicative of how other Catholics think and act. Now, I do wonder what she meant by ‘worship’…

Believe me she meant worship because we discussed the topic in depth.

 

[patrick457]

Believe me she meant worship because we discussed the topic in depth.

Okay, so in Catholic jargon, she actually meant ‘worship’ as in latreia, the type of adoration reserved for God alone. Now if that is the case, that IS problematic.

 

[CleverUserName]

Before I had any exposure to the Catholic Church, I heard all of the anti-Catholic rhetoric just like the rest of us did.

But I never had a Catholic give me a poor or inaccurate answer to my questions in that regard.

I had the difference between praying “TO” and asking someone to pray “FOR” explained to me. I had examples such as asking a friend to pray for you given to me. Pretty much everything that has been stated and explained at length in this very thread was explained to me.

I think this claim that there are tons of Completely Clueless Catholics out there misrepresenting the faith to questioning Protestants is inaccurately inflated.

I asked a lot of questions of a lot of Catholics.
A lot.

Never did I encounter one of the Completely Clueless Catholics that are being described here. I don’t think I was just lucky. I think they are the exception rather than the rule.

Now when a Protestant comes at a Catholic who has been attacked ad nauseum and isn’t really inquiring but rather attacking, I can imagine once in a while a sarcastic response might fly…“I only worship Mary when I get tired of worshiping all of my statues and the Pope”… but I digress…

 

[houseofsaul]

Okay, so in Catholic jargon, she actually meant ‘worship’ as in latreia, the type of adoration reserved for God alone. Now if that is the case, that IS problematic.

Almost 4 myself but forever a learner in the ways of Jesus