Praying TO dead relatives?

[TimothyH]

You got it.

The difference between prayer and worship is not a difference in degree (like the difference between pink and red), it’s a difference in kind (like the difference between the color of a banana and its smell). They are made of different stuff.

It is not right to pray to bananas.

-Tim-

 

[johnnyjones]

I have mostly worked through this issue but I would say that if your praying (petitioning) your dead friend who unbeknownst to you is not in heaven (and in Hell) God is not 'redirecting" your prayer to him/her.

That is why the church says that the person must have been recognized to have been in the service of God for prayer to be “effective”.

 

[neophyte]

It is not right to pray to bananas.

-Tim-

I guess that explains why they never listen to me.

 

[Dubay]

You got it.

The difference between prayer and worship is not a difference in degree (like the difference between pink and red), it’s a difference in kind (like the difference between the color of a banana and its smell). They are made of different stuff.

Prayer vs Worship:

That is really up to interpretation;

There can be honest disagreements if lighting candles, statues, praying, kneeling, prayers, songs, repetitions don’t add up to worship. As many would simply state that it does easily equates to worship.

 

[neophyte]

Prayer vs Worship:

That is really up to interpretation;

There can be honest disagreements if lighting candles, statues, praying, kneeling, prayers, songs, repetitions don’t add up to worship. As many would simply state that it does easily equates to worship.

They could say that, but they’d be wrong. Worship is an attitude of the heart, which may or may not be present while we do those other things.

Just as meat + vegetables + spices + water *do not *= Beethoven’s 5th Symphony,
so candles + statues + praying + kneeling + songs + repetitions do not = worship, .

Prayer and worship are made of different stuff.

 

[inkaneer]

This issue involves the church’s teaching on the Communion of saints. We hold that we are joined to our brothers and sisters in the one Body of Christ that is the Church. Though some of us maybe in the Church Glorious [heaven] the church Suffering [purgatory] or the church Militant [here on earth] we are still joined together and thus I can ask my brother here in the church militant to intercede for me, so too I can ask other members to do the same and I too can intercede for them [although those in heaven do not need intercession]

I also believe that no prayer is wasted. If we direct a prayer intended for a family member and we were unaware of that they died unsaved, then that prayer will be addressed by another. No prayer goes unanswered.

 

[johnnyjones]

This issue involves the church’s teaching on the Communion of saints. We hold that we are joined to our brothers and sisters in the one Body of Christ that is the Church. Though some of us maybe in the Church Glorious [heaven] the church Suffering [purgatory] or the church Militant [here on earth] we are still joined together and thus I can ask my brother here in the church militant to intercede for me, so too I can ask other members to do the same and I too can intercede for them [although those in heaven do not need intercession]

I also believe that no prayer is wasted. If we direct a prayer intended for a family member and we were unaware of that they died unsaved, then that prayer will be addressed by another. No prayer goes unanswered.

I agree with you. I was just surprised by one poster who was Catholic and basically rejected the concept of praying to saints. I would find it difficult to sit in the Lords house surrounded “by a great cloud of witnesses” and not be involved on some level with petitions to them and Mary.

It is true though that you are not mandated to pray to saints or Mary but it does seem like skipping over the saints in prayer would be like driving around barriers on the road. I prefer to pray to God more often but without the saints I don’t get the family feel.

 

[inkaneer]

I agree with you. I was just surprised by one poster who was Catholic and basically rejected the concept of praying to saints. I would find it difficult to sit in the Lords house surrounded “by a great cloud of witnesses” and not be involved on some level with petitions to them and Mary.

It is true though that you are not mandated to pray to saints or Mary but it does seem like skipping over the saints in prayer would be like driving around barriers on the road. I prefer to pray to God more often but without the saints I don’t get the family feel.

There is biblical support for The Catholic Church claiming Mary as Queen of Heaven. There is also biblical support for asking her to intercede for us. But Protestants will probably never see it and if they did would never believe it.

 

[johnnyjones]

There is biblical support for The Catholic Church claiming Mary as Queen of Heaven. There is also biblical support for asking her to intercede for us. But Protestants will probably never see it and if they did would never believe it.

It seems there are Catholics that don’t see it either, even on this thread.

 

[Ignatius]

Has the Catholic Church ever taught that it is acceptable to pray TO your dead relatives or friends for help? Of course we can pray FOR them and should, but asking a non saint who is dead for help seems wrong.

Some pass down that they have seen and talked to their dead relatives and friends and asked them for help as well.

What do you mean by pray? In the English language pray simply means to ask. However Protestants, not knowing this, confuse praying with worship and so draw erroneous conclusions. If you are talking to Protestants who are ignorant of this them you probable want to explain this to them, that is if you can get them to listen.

I hope this helps. God bless you.

 

[johnnyjones]

What do you mean by pray? In the English language pray simply means to ask. However Protestants, not knowing this, confuse praying with worship and so draw erroneous conclusions. If you are talking to Protestants who are ignorant of this them you probable want to explain this to them, that is if you can get them to listen.

I hope this helps. God bless you.

Scroll back and you will see a Catholic poster who knows all this that I debated at length.

 

[LilyM]

I have mostly worked through this issue but I would say that if your praying (petitioning) your dead friend who unbeknownst to you is not in heaven (and in Hell) God is not 'redirecting" your prayer to him/her.

That is why the church says that the person must have been recognized to have been in the service of God for prayer to be “effective”.

Where did you get the idea that Church teaching is that someone must have been ‘recognized to have been in the service of God for prayer to be “effective”’? Did you not just say that we are permitted to privately pray to uncanonized persons (or at least those who are not officially on the road to canonization)? The Church would certainly not permit, even privately, any mode of prayer that it knew to be ineffective!

 

[johnnyjones]

Where did you get the idea that Church teaching is that someone must have been ‘recognized to have been in the service of God for prayer to be “effective”’? Did you not just say that we are permitted to privately pray to uncanonized persons (or at least those who are not officially on the road to canonization)? The Church would certainly not permit, even privately, any mode of prayer that it knew to be ineffective!

Well, let me use common sense on you. Why would you be praying (petitioning) to a dead relative or friend if you don’t believe them to be in heaven?, How is that petition effective (as several google searches have said) if the person was not "in the service of God? By the way “in the service of God” means that you believe they entered heaven by the life they lived. Of course you may not 100% know a souls destination.

The next point is that I created a thread question, then after a few responses did a google search and posted what the church actually teaches which is that praying privately to a dead loved one is acceptable but again only if they have been in the service of God or believed to be in heaven. If your anywhere else but heaven your prayer goes unheard** to the one you were specifically praying to.** It does not go unheard in general and may be directed in a way I can’t comprehend. Bottom line: Praying to someone you believe not to be in heaven should not be done.

The souls in Puratory are prayed for not to, so I don’t think they can act as intercessors. And Hell, forget it, no prayers are received by the dead that occupy there.

 

[LilyM]

Well, let me use common sense on you. Why would you be praying (petitioning) to a dead relative or friend if you don’t believe them to be in heaven?, How is that petition effective (as several google searches have said) if the person was not "in the service of God? By the way “in the service of God” means that you believe they entered heaven by the life they lived. Of course you may not 100% know a souls destination.

The next point is that I created a thread question, then after a few responses did a google search and posted what the church actually teaches which is that praying privately to a dead loved one is acceptable but again only if they have been in the service of God or believed to be in heaven. If your anywhere else but heaven your prayer goes unheard** to the one you were specifically praying to.** It does not go unheard in general and may be directed in a way I can’t comprehend. Bottom line: Praying to someone you believe not to be in heaven should not be done.

The souls in Puratory are prayed for not to, so I don’t think they can act as intercessors. And Hell, forget it, no prayers are received by the dead that occupy there.

Well, my mother is definitely not in heaven - in fact she is still very much earthbound, being alive. Nonetheless I ask her for prayers.

Is she ‘in the service of the Lord’? Well, she is a good person and, being that none of us can read hearts minds or souls, I am entitled to hope so. And I am certainly NOT ever, no matter how bad her actions, permitted to assume that she is hellbound. Sch judgements are the prerogative of God alone.

So in summary - we do not KNOW that any particular individual human is in Hell (Satan and the fallen angela are a different matter). That being the case, it is never wrong to hope that God in His mercy granted someone the grace to repent at the last moment and go either to purgatory or heaven. Nor to act upon that hope and pray to them.

 

[johnnyjones]

Well, my mother is definitely not in heaven - in fact she is still very much earthbound, being alive. Nonetheless I ask her for prayers.

Is she ‘in the service of the Lord’? Well, she is a good person and, being that none of us can read hearts minds or souls, I am entitled to hope so. And I am certainly NOT ever, no matter how bad her actions, permitted to assume that she is hellbound. Sch judgements are the prerogative of God alone.

So in summary - we do not KNOW that any particular individual human is in Hell (Satan and the fallen angela are a different matter). That being the case, it is never wrong to hope that God in His mercy granted someone the grace to repent at the last moment and go either to purgatory or heaven. Nor to act upon that hope and pray to them.

I can only suggest you look into this matter deeper.

What if you had a good friend on a job that helped you through tough times and supported you through trials and he was an Atheist that suddenly died, and after his death you were greatly sorrowed and thought about praying to him because you are Catholic, should you do that knowing he stood against Christ? You can if you want, but the church has recommened praying privately to those non canonized individuals who were saints (Christians) in the service of God.

You can pray to your Atheist friend if you want but if you know before hand that one would at the minimum need to have been a Christian at death, why conduct that act? You don’t pray to the souls in Purgatory, you pray FOR them. We petition the saints in heaven based on their lives on earth, even those non canonized. That fits because we pray to the canonized saints based on their lives on earth as well.

 

[inkaneer]

I can only suggest you look into this matter deeper.

What if you had a good friend on a job that helped you through tough times and supported you through trials and he was an Atheist that suddenly died, and after his death you were greatly sorrowed and thought about praying to him because you are Catholic, should you do that knowing he stood against Christ? You can if you want, but the church has recommened praying privately to those non canonized individuals who were saints (Christians) in the service of God.

You can pray to your Atheist friend if you want but if you know before hand that one would at the minimum need to have been a Christian at death, why conduct that act? You don’t pray to the souls in Purgatory, you pray FOR them. We petition the saints in heaven based on their lives on earth, even those non canonized. That fits because we pray to the canonized saints based on their lives on earth as well.

But did he stand against Christ? Being an atheist does not necessarily means being anti Christ. You have forgotten about invinceable ignorance. The Church holds out salvation as possible for everyone, even atheists. Would it be fair to say that God knows the hearts and minds of all souls and judges accordingly. That includes those who pray and if a prayer is directed to a lost soul that God,knowing the heart and mind of the prayor, will direct that prayer to an appropriate recipient? As for those in purgatory, paragraph 958 of the Catechism seems to say they can intercede for us:

"958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them.“500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.”

 

[johnnyjones]

But did he stand against Christ? Being an atheist does not necessarily means being anti Christ. You have forgotten about invinceable ignorance. The Church holds out salvation as possible for everyone, even atheists. Would it be fair to say that God knows the hearts and minds of all souls and judges accordingly. That includes those who pray and if a prayer is directed to a lost soul that God,knowing the heart and mind of the prayor, will direct that prayer to an appropriate recipient? As for those in purgatory, paragraph 958 of the Catechism seems to say they can intercede for us:

"958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them.“500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.”

I had not seen that portion of the catechism, so you are definitely right about intercession in Purgatory. That was educational. Yes the church does hold out salvation for all. Are you saying then that one could pray to (petition) a a Jew, Muslim, Hindi or other various religions because they may get to heaven because of true ignorance? I really don’t know.

 

[inkaneer]

I had not seen that portion of the catechism, so you are definitely right about intercession in Purgatory. That was educational. Yes the church does hold out salvation for all. Are you saying then that one could pray to (petition) a a Jew, Muslim, Hindi or other various religions because they may get to heaven because of true ignorance? I really don’t know.

Isn’t that a little extreme? I mean it is possible that they may get to heaven and if they do can intercede for us. But I think the best advice for anyone is what my mother used to tell me when I was a kid. She used to say, “Stay in your own yard!” Because usually when I left it is when I got into trouble. So staying with the canonized saints is akin to staying in your own yard.

 

[johnnyjones]

Isn’t that a little extreme? I mean it is possible that they may get to heaven and if they do can intercede for us. But I think the best advice for anyone is what my mother used to tell me when I was a kid. She used to say, “Stay in your own yard!” Because usually when I left it is when I got into trouble. So staying with the canonized saints is akin to staying in your own yard.

Why extreme? We are encourged to pray to dead loved ones as well as the beatified. If a loved one is Jewish or of another faith, even Atheist, which in todays environment could easily be common, answers should be at the ready.

 

[inkaneer]

Why extreme? We are encourged to pray to dead loved ones as well as the beatified. If a loved one is Jewish or of another faith, even Atheist, which in todays environment could easily be common, answers should be at the ready.

Well. I don’t have any dead loved ones that fit the bill for being other than Catholic except for my fundamentalist evangelical aunt who didn’t like me in this life. So, no way am I praying to her.