Praying to Dead Saints?

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The saints are alive. Catholics pray to God. Catholics pray with the saints.

This thread is an invitation to take your best shot at refuting the statement that Catholics pray to dead saints. Take shots at the statement, not at me.
 
The saints are alive. Catholics pray to God. Catholics pray with the saints.

This thread is an invitation to take your best shot at refuting the statement that Catholics pray to dead saints. Take shots at the statement, not at me.
Well don’t Catholics pray to dead saints (which have physically died) so the saints could intercede or pray to God for them?
 
Truth Stalker,

Given that one definition of “dead” is “not physically alive in the present world,” and given that Catholics do indeed pray to saints (“St. Anthony, please help me find my car keys”), one can say that “Catholics pray to dead saints” and, in some sense at least, be right.

What needs refuting is the idea that there is something wrong with the practice.
  • Liberian
 
It is written (Job 5:1): “Call . . . if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.” Now, as Gregory says (Moral. v, 30) on this passage, “we call upon God when we beseech Him in humble prayer.” Therefore when we wish to pray God, we should turn to the saints, that they may pray God for us.
 
It is written (Job 5:1): “Call . . . if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.” Now, as Gregory says (Moral. v, 30) on this passage, “we call upon God when we beseech Him in humble prayer.” Therefore when we wish to pray God, we should turn to the saints, that they may pray God for us.
The saints referred to there are the people of God on earth, which is the common meaning for “saints” in the Bible. “Saint” simply means “holy one” or “holy person.” It doesn’t refer to dead saints. In fact, Saul conjured up Samuel (who was a saint) and Saul died because of it.

N.B. I’m Catholic, and I fully accept and believe in the communion of saints. I’m just taking the OP up on his invitation to fire away.
 
The saints referred to there are the people of God on earth, which is the common meaning for “saints” in the Bible. “Saint” simply means “holy one” or “holy person.” It doesn’t refer to dead saints. In fact, Saul conjured up Samuel (who was a saint) and Saul died because of it.

N.B. I’m Catholic, and I fully accept and believe in the communion of saints. I’m just taking the OP up on his invitation to fire away.
Interesting, but how is praying to a saint different from conjuring him up?
 
Prayer to the Saints…here is my standard answer:

Please note that in Eph 6:18-19 we read, “Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, and also for me,” and in 1 Tim 2:1 we read, “FIRST OF all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,” In James 5:16 we are also told to “pray for one another.”

Now, it is clear from scripture that we are to engage in intercessory prayer. Moreover, the apostle James tells us that “the prayer of a just man availeth much.” In the book of Hebrews 12:22-23 it says that, “…you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,” If the prayers of a just man availeth much, surely the prayers of “just men made perfect” will be of even greater effect.

You refer to all these people as “dead.” This is contrary to scripture. Jesus, himself, says in Matt 22:32 “‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” Those in heaven are more alive in Christ than we are. We also read in the Gospels that Jesus was transfigured on Mount Tabor. At the transfiguration Jesus is seen and heard speaking with Moses and Elijah.

The Catholic bible also contains the entirety of scripture. In 2 Maccabees 12:38-44 we read about prayer for the dead. In chapter 15 verses 11-16 we read about intercession by the saints.

Catholic understandings in this area are the most compatible with scripture, and are fully patterned on what we know of the heavenly members of the body of Christ. This practice in no way changes or modifies our understandings of the Holy Spirit nor does it belittle Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. It’s important to keep in mind that we are all members of the body of Christ. Paul tells us in Romans 8:33-39, “For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Those who are part of the body of Christ in heaven are still connected to those that are members of the body of Christ on earth. This made even more clear by the unity describe in Rev 5:13 where it says, “And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!”

In Rev 5:8 it also says that “…the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;” This is clearly intercessory activity on the part of the heavenly saints carrying our prayers to the Lord.

And yes, through Jesus, they are in some ways aware of what is happening on earth. Those in heaven are as Jesus tells us, “like angels.” And scripture tells us in Luke 15:10, " Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Obviously, those in heaven know something about what’s happening on earth. The bible gives us numerous examples of angels interacting with men. The book of Revelation 6:9 also cites an example of the martyrs being aware that God has not yet avenged their blood. This is not an exhaustive list of passages but it is sufficient to show that this is all part of God’s divine plan. God’s plan works only for good and everything within it magnifies and glorifies the Lord. None of it detracts from God in any way.
 
Intercessory prayer by way of the heavenly saints is clearly different than necromancy. The use of the occult such as fortune tellers, augurs, séances and the like are far different from prayer to the saints. Saul’s use of a “medium” to “conjure up” Samuel is by its very nature different from intercessory prayer.

Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration and the apostles saw them and heard them. Surely, Jesus wasn’t breaking his own commandment. Angels communicate with people and we will be like angels. Surely, there is nothing evil in any of this.
 
Intercessory prayer by way of the heavenly saints is clearly different than necromancy. The use of the occult such as fortune tellers, augurs, séances and the like are far different from prayer to the saints. Saul’s use of a “medium” to “conjure up” Samuel is by its very nature different from intercessory prayer.

Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration and the apostles saw them and heard them. Surely, Jesus wasn’t breaking his own commandment. Angels communicate with people and we will be like angels. Surely, there is nothing evil in any of this.
Ah, but didn’t Elijah not die? And doesn’t Deuteronomy state that the Lord himself buried Moses in an undisclosed location, and that they couldn’t find his body?
 
The saints remain alive in Christ. They are in the presents of God. They are free of the earth desires of temptation. They are only filled with God’s love, through his grace.

Dead means damnation not a physical death within the passages that are being refered to here.
 
Porthos,

Yes, the Bible does condemn necromancy. Part of “necromancy” is the “mancy” part–trying to figure out the future. That is a necessary part of what is being condemned.
  • Liberian
 
The saints are alive. Catholics pray to God. Catholics pray with the saints.

This thread is an invitation to take your best shot at refuting the statement that Catholics pray to dead saints. Take shots at the statement, not at me.

The only ways to have “dead saints” are for Jesus Christ to be a zombie, a purely human being, or damned. Those, or for the soul to be subject to the same fate as the body. That might be compatible with OT anthropology, but the NT distinguishes between body & soul; which is what allows Hebrews 12 to speak of “the spirits of just men made perfect” in the heavenly Jerusalem; even while the Church on earth exists, as the context shows. It is for the encouragement of Christians on earth that the passage & letter are written:​

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Hbr 12:23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hbr 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.
Hbr 12:25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.

It sounds (in vv.22-24) as though the writer is treating fellowship with those in heaven as a present reality, which is also (in v.25) something future; Christians enjoy that fellowship now - yet they can also come into condemnation by God.

About vocabulary - the CC has long spoken of “prayer to” the saints; OTOH, if the choice of word “with” helps to remove occasions for confusion without obscuring dogma, go for it 👍 ##
 
Heavenly Saints would have to be omnipresent in order for them to hear our prayers. Only God(Trinity) is omnipresent.
 
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