Praying to Dead Saints?

[TimOliv]

Of course I do . I always pray the way Jesus told us to.

Christ also told Peter that whatever he binds on earth will be bound in heaven. So since the Pope says we can pray to saints to ask for intercession…

Or do you only follow some of the things Jesus said?

 

[DesertAscetic]

Heavenly Saints would have to be omnipresent in order for them to hear our prayers. Only God(Trinity) is omnipresent.

You might want to do some studying of quantum physics before you assume so readily the order of the universe. In fact, I have a few online radio broadcasts by a Protestant outfit on the subject, if you’d like to hear it. Philosophically, and anybody please refine my understanding as I need it, there is a distinction between being “outside of time” and being “omnipresent.” [All things omnipresent are outside of time, but not all things outside of time are omnipresent.]

Basically, outside of large body physicality, time doesn’t exist, and all “part-icles” that were ever once in contact, are really one in the same, so there is no need even to communicate, because no distance/separation needs to be bridged.

I find this interestingly parallels the Catholic concept of The Body of Christ as being one body. Really, from heavens perspective, they don’t NEED us to communicate to them our need. Christ (and His Body, the saints) knows the need instantaneously in the way I know my toe needs cold water as soon as I burn it. * WE need the communication/prayer to bring ourselves into UNITY with that spiritual reality. And that spiritual reality, the body of Christ, includes the immortal lives of the saints.

~Shaunna*

 

[DesertAscetic]

John was blessed to recieve this prophetic vision.

And don’t we call saints “blessed”??? Except, their vision isn’t prophetic, their vision is literal. How much more glorious is that?

 

[DesertAscetic]

Because we can see and talk with earthly saints.Heavenly saints are no longer of this earthly kingdom.We have Christ Jesus to interceed and hear our prayers.That is the Glory that His Father gave Him for being obedient to His will.

It seems to me, your entire hang-up is based on three things:

1. A narrow notion of physics, and
2. An even narrower notion of prayer.
3. A grossly narrow view of The Body of Christ.

As for #1
Again, if you’d like, you can go here and listen to Protestant preachers talking about the implications of quantum physics. I highly recommend going beyond their teaching to really understand the philosophical implications, but listening to these tracks should AT LEAST inspire you to be a little less presumptuous as to the laws of the universe. Frankly, you haven’t a clue as to what types of communication, locality, and interaction are possible.

As for #2
We are all getting bogged down in semantics. I don’t pray TO saints, I call upon saints to pray for me in the same exact way I call upon my earthly brethren to pray for me. I might, however, communicate TO/WITH the saints, but this is not a prayer in the strict sense of divine supplication (which has yet been the only form of prayer you refer to, even though the Bible delineates other forms).

As for #3
You imply we can’t have this relationship with saints, because they are not on earth. Jesus is in heaven and you clearly believe you have a relationship with him. Ah, but then you throw in your notion of physical laws. “Well, he’s omnipresent, that’s different.” Are the angels omnipresent then? They are localized, spiritual beings, yet, amazingly, they can bridge that heaven/earth divide and interact/relate with earthly persons. Why can’t the saints in heaven do this? Perhaps you will say “But God commands them to be messengers…” Basically, I see this as getting down to the question of The Body of Christ. Are their two bodies or one? One in heaven and one in earth? Or one that encompasses both in ways perhaps our minds, filled with the notion of physics taught in 8th grade science, can’t fully comprehend?

What do you think the saints are doing up there if they aren’t interacting with the whole “body of christ”?

Just because you preclude yourself from interaction with half of the Body of Christ (in heaven), doesn’t mean that they must preclude themselves from earth. There is no physical reason and there is no spiritual reason. Even IF (and I’m not sure either way) there were no scripture to MANDATE it, that wouldn’t mean there is a rule NOT TO. The Bible clearly doesn’t give instruction as to everything we are to do in our lives.

In the same way the implication of the ten commandments are the numerous moral laws we must follow, we can see the implication of other things Christ and the Apostles spoke of. Jesus never specifically says “Thou shalt not commit suicide,” but we can see that is an implication of “thou shalt not murder.” The bible never says “Thou shalt pray for saints intercession,” but we can see that as an implication of the clear existence of the Body of Christ, the clear command to pray for those in the Body of Christ, and the clear explanation of what the Body of Christ is.

~Shaunna

 

[Magicsilence]

Because we can see and talk with earthly saints.Heavenly saints are no longer of this earthly kingdom.We have Christ Jesus to interceed and hear our prayers.That is the Glory that His Father gave Him for being obedient to His will.

But why stop there?

Sure, the saints are NOTHING next to Our Lord.

But why not ask them for help too?

Peace and God Bless.

 

[RCCDefender]

I am not in agreement… Jesus didn,t say ask my Heavenly Saints in my name.

Let me jump onboard here.
John 21: 24-25 “It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true. There are also many other things Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.”

So, scripture is not all encompasing, is it? Therefore you cannot definitavely make the statement the Jesus did not say to ask His heavenly saints for anything.

Jesus prayed for a supernatural unity in His Church. We are more united to one another than a finger is united to a hand. Our Christian unity does not cease to exist at a person’s physical death because our God is God of the living and not of the dead. It matters not whether a person is a heavenly saint or an earthly saint (other than that the heavenly saints have been made perfect in Christ while we earthly ones are still working out our salvation). You can communicate with either one, asking for their prayers. Heavenly saints care just as much about us as earthly saints do and are cheering us to victory in the race to heaven (Heb 12:1).

 

[wcknight]

IHS,

It seems everyone here should abide by your method of praying. You take one statement from scriptures and want to make it the law of the land… the fact of the matter is, prayers to the saints have been an accepted part of Christ’s Church (aka the CATHOLIC Church) for centuries. Not to mention that prayers to various saints have accounted for hundred if not many thoussands of miracles.

Are we to accept your sudden enlightened interpretation of scriptures and condemn our prayers to the saints. Even the saints. who I believe have a far closer relatiosnhip to God (than you), advocate prayers to the saints (especially the Blessed Mother and the Holy Family etc, DO we accept your teaching over theirs ? I think not.

IF prayers to the saints should be taboo, then why is it that no one has ever condemned the practice before, surely it would be worth a Marian visit or some message from Heaven. Countless holy men and women have lived and died and not one has mentioned this evil practice. Could it be that it is perfectly acceptable ??? Could it be that you’re absolutely wrong ???

Probably not because as you protestants all believe the Holy SPirit speaks directly to you when you are reading scriptures all 50 million (or whatever) of you. Which explains why you have 30,000 + denominations, evidently the Holy Spirit has a different interpretation for each of you, that is why none of you agree.

Does that not make you just a little suspicious of just how accurate your individual interpretation of scriptures really is ???

IF indeed the Holy Spirit were guiding each and every one of you should you not come up with one and ONLY one version of scriptures ??? We only have ONE interpretation for scriptures. Isn’t that the way it should be ? For us praying to saints is perfectly acceptable, it is as it should be and believe me it works,… St Anthony where did I lose my car keys ?

 

[MariaG]

Because we can see and talk with earthly saints.Heavenly saints are no longer of this earthly kingdom.We have Christ Jesus to interceed and hear our prayers.That is the Glory that His Father gave Him for being obedient to His will.

I just had a really long reply, that due to my own user error, has been wiped out:crying:

That said, I believe these things happen for a reason.

So to simplify my reply:

There is much scripture that I do not really think needs to be listed (although I did last time!) that we all know that refers to the oneness of the body of Christ, death cannot separate us and not to mention the Apostles Creed that speaks of the communion of Saints. If you really wish to look at the scripture, although I took it from more than one site, a good place to look is scripture Catholic

There is one part of your reply that is correct. We do have Christ to intercede for us. But we ask the saints to ADD their prayers to ours in the very same manner as we would ask any saint on earth. It is beholden upon you to show me the scripture that tells us that the saints in heaven are no longer supposed to pray for those on earth. And that those on earth are not supposed to ask for the prayers of the most righteous saints of all, the saint in heaven.

You are following a manmade tradition that unscripturally separates the body of Christ.

From scripture Catholic
I**. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth**
:bible1: Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

:bible1:Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
:bible1:1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death. :bible1:Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

 

[Pax]

Because we can see and talk with earthly saints.Heavenly saints are no longer of this earthly kingdom.We have Christ Jesus to interceed and hear our prayers.That is the Glory that His Father gave Him for being obedient to His will.

Are you denying what scripture says?

In Hebrews 12:1 it says that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.

We also know from scripture that angels interact with men in direct and indirect ways.

We also know from scripture that when we go to heaven we will be like the angels.

We also know from Luke 15:7 that “there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.” Surely, the heavenly saints are aware of all those that repent and come to Christ. Sometimes this happens in large numbers throughout the world.

It is clear that you do not understand what heaven will be like for us. Scripture says, “…no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him.” Based on scripture we can easily deduce, however, that the saints in heaven are not only aware of what is going on with those still living on earth, but that they also care.

 

[Pax]

IHS,

What is your take on my post # 54?

 

[MariaG]

I’ll bump this up again. I know I was having troubles on the site and did not even bother coming here for a few days thinking it might be another hacker attack.

We know there is scripture that talks of one body, God is not the God of the dead but the living, ask others to pray for one another.

So, it is beholden on all those who hold the contention that asking saints in heaven to pray for us in the same manner that one asks the saints on earth to pray for us is against scripture.

Where is the scripture that tells us that the part of the body of Christ that is in heaven is no longer supposed to pray for the part of the body of Christ here on earth? Or where it tells us we should not ask the saints in heaven for our prayers? Show me the scripture that shows that the body of Christ should be separated in the manner you believe it should be.

You need more that a belief, you need scripture. Show us through scripture how the body of Christ is separated in this manner.

God Bless,
Maria