Praying to God

[guanophore]

So you are backtracking on what you previously said.

All Scripture is inspired by God and God is all sufficient therefore all the Scripture which He inspired men to write is totally sufficient.

Now nowhere in God’s inspired all sufficient Word, does God tell His children to pray to one another. The all sufficient Word of God does instruct christians to pray to God for one another.

The all sufficient all knowing God didn’t make any mistakes when He gave us His all sufficient inspired Word. It’s very clear that God didn’t instruct His children to pray to one another because He is their Heavenly Father and He wants His children to pray to Him.

Scripture does not say of itself that it contains everything unto sufficiency. It is sufficient for the things for which it is purposed. There are other things which are also sufficient for training in righteousness, such as the Apostolic Teachng fellowship, Eucharist, and prayers not found in the scriptures.

"They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. " Acts 2:42

Scripture was never intended to include “everything”. If it were, Jesus would have written a book, instead of buiding a church!

Scripture is full of injuctions to pray for one another.

ALL christians are saints, so these Scriptures refer to ALL the prayers of ALL the saints.

EXACTLY! Whether they are still in this life, or have passed on to the next. I think you might be getting it!

 

[fbl9]

Your words seemed a little malicious, I’m thick skinned, of course you can pray to the third person of the Trinity. Yet note of all Jesus’ own prayers you do not find Him doing so. We find in Acts the Holy Spirit speaking to us… Acts 13:2 "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” and Acts 20:23, “I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me.” Acts 28:25, "They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:” The trinity is true, real, just that each have a different purpose in how God relates to us, I John 5:7, “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

You simply are not to pray TO any human being, who can answer prayers but God?

you are right about my words being malicious.i am being upfront in my dislike for the hatered spread by baptists towards the church of Jesus Christ.you didn’t have an answer for why in the KJB were the gospel writers are refered to as saints.there are many examples of humans interceding on the behalf of others to God.human beings are an union of spirit and flesh when one dies the spirit is seperated from the flesh.therefore one who is in the eternal precense of God is not a human being but a spirit just like angels are spirits.

 

[guanophore]

You simply are not to pray TO any human being, who can answer prayers but God?

Prayer = to entreat/to ask

Here we have an example of Paul praying to Timothy:

2 Tim 4:9-21

Do your best to come to me soon, 10 for Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia. 11 Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful in my ministry. 12 I have sent Tychicus to Ephesus. 13 When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books, and above all the parchments. …

21 Do your best to come before winter.

He is earnestly asking for Timothy to do some things for him. This is the same way we use the word “pray” when we apply it to saints who have gone on to their heavenly reward.

 

[wolfwredroses]

Dear Guanophore (interesting nic…a meaning?) how do you see Paul’s letter to Timothy as him “praying to Timothy”? Forgive me I don’t see it. Prayer for other’s is constantly enjoined in the Bible, my point which seems to be ignored is in regards to the original question. Can we go back please? You are NOT to pray “to” anyone other than God.

Concerning flb, I am sincerely sorry for offending you, I have no malice towards you personally. I was raised a STRICT Catholic, my aunt is a nun, educated in a Catholic school I was an alter boy longer than anyone my age and I kissed the feet of Mary’s statute, prayed your rosary and believed to where I boasted of being “Catholic” when asked if I was a Christian believing I was even a step up from the nominal “Christian”. Do you know “malice” is extremely evil according to God’s Word? Mark 7:21,22, "21For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. Romans 1:29, “They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice.” Ephesians 4:31, “Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.” I Peter 2:1, Titus 3:3, Colossians 3:8, The church of Jesus Christ is His Body, Ephesians 5:23, Colosians 1:24. I have never implied we are not to interceed on the behalf of others, of course we are, that is called prayer, again to whom? As far as the King James, good translation but the entire New Testement refers to those who are saved and born again, as “saints” not just the writers of the Gospels.

 

[guanophore]

how do you see Paul’s letter to Timothy as him “praying to Timothy”? Forgive me I don’t see it.

I think you are not seeing it because your defintion of prayer is too narrow. Prayer includes worship (adoration), requests (entreaty), intercession,and a variety of other forms.

Prayer for other’s is constantly enjoined in the Bible, my point which seems to be ignored is in regards to the original question. Can we go back please? You are NOT to pray “to” anyone other than God.

Wwe are not to worship/adore anyone other than God. There are plenty of examples of people in the Bible asking others to intercede for them.

You are taking a late English word, and trying to force it’s modern meaning back into the biblical text. From Merriam- Webster

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French priere, praiere, preiere, from Medieval Latin precaria, from Latin, feminine of precarius obtained by entreaty, from prec-, prex
Date: 14th century

The NT was written in the first century, and was not written in Middle English, French, or Latin. The modern word “pray” derives from the Latin Medieval term maning “obtain by entreaty”. This word is still used in many legal documents where the plaintiff “prays the court” (entreats for judgement).

The Gk. NT:4336 “proseuchomai” can also be translated “to supplicate” (ask for something).

The second half of this compound word found in the Greek is
euchomai (yoo’-khom-ahee); middle voice of a primary verb; to wish

Paul “wishes earnestly” or prays that Timothy come to him soon.
Just as the plaintiff wishes, entreats (prays) to the court for judgement.

 

[wolfwredroses]

Yes, you are correct, in my narrow viewpoint of the question originally asked. You are correct I was addressing the issue of praying “to”, she asked if we should pray “to” anyone other than God? She even qualified it by stating she was not asking about praying “for” someone. Paul request to Timothy in your broad defination is fine, there is no issue there. It is my contention that prayer in your term, “worship” is the issue at hand. If I am wrong, please let me know. I may pray*** for ***one’s health, blessing etc. but I would NEVER ask that person to pray to me for it’s procurment. That is worship, THAT is forbidden, and THAT is what Catholics do with Mary and the (so-called) saints. It is idolatry, sin, and a violation of God’s Holy Commandment to have no other god before Him.

 

[GJx86]

That is worship, THAT is forbidden, and THAT is what Catholics do with Mary and the (so-called) saints. It is idolatry, sin, and a violation of God’s Holy Commandment to have no other god before Him.

If you look up the word “pray” at Merriam-Webster’s website, you find that the first definition listed is “To entreat; to implore.” When a Catholic “prays” to Mary or the saints, it is under this definition: We ask the saints, who are righteous and whose prayer avails much (Jas 5:16), to intercede on our behalf before God. (The first intransitive definition – “to request in a humble manner” also applies here.)

We don’t worship Mary and the saints, since they aren’t God. It’s just that we also don’t restrict the meaning of the word “pray” to “worship.”

 

[fbl9]

Dear Guanophore (interesting nic…a meaning?) how do you see Paul’s letter to Timothy as him “praying to Timothy”? Forgive me I don’t see it. Prayer for other’s is constantly enjoined in the Bible, my point which seems to be ignored is in regards to the original question. Can we go back please? You are NOT to pray “to” anyone other than God.

Concerning flb, I am sincerely sorry for offending you, I have no malice towards you personally. I was raised a STRICT Catholic, my aunt is a nun, educated in a Catholic school I was an alter boy longer than anyone my age and I kissed the feet of Mary’s statute, prayed your rosary and believed to where I boasted of being “Catholic” when asked if I was a Christian believing I was even a step up from the nominal “Christian”. Do you know “malice” is extremely evil according to God’s Word? Mark 7:21,22, "21For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. Romans 1:29, “They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice.” Ephesians 4:31, “Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.” I Peter 2:1, Titus 3:3, Colossians 3:8, The church of Jesus Christ is His Body, Ephesians 5:23, Colosians 1:24. I have never implied we are not to interceed on the behalf of others, of course we are, that is called prayer, again to whom? As far as the King James, good translation but the entire New Testement refers to those who are saved and born again, as “saints” not just the writers of the Gospels.

now i ask will you ever give these words to one of your pastors when they preach against catholism? not likely.

 

[wolfwredroses]

You blind followers of the blind…I left the catholic church 30 years ago, when by the grace of God I was saved by faith in Jesus Christ… I NEVER ONCE ever…***not ONE time ever heard a Baptist nor Protestant Preacher ***preach (in my opinion, unfortunatetly) AGAINST the pagan ritualism of the catholic church. You insult me flb in your lack of understanding of ANYTHING outside your religion.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, you are correct, in my narrow viewpoint of the question originally asked. You are correct I was addressing the issue of praying “to”, she asked if we should pray “to” anyone other than God?

And the answer is, if by “pray” you mean “worship” then no.

On the other hand, if you mean “pray” in terms of asking for something, then it is fine to ask whoever you like for whatever you want.

She even qualified it by stating she was not asking about praying “for” someone. Paul request to Timothy in your broad defination is fine, there is no issue there. It is my contention that prayer in your term, “worship” is the issue at hand.

Well, you are free to believe whatever you like, even if it is wrong! Catholics do not worship any creature or created thing. Worship belongs to God alone,

If I am wrong, please let me know. I may pray*** for ***one’s health, blessing etc. but I would NEVER ask that person to pray to me for it’s procurment. That is worship,

You are suffering from an ignorance of the English language, and a narrow minded understanding of prayer. There are many forms of prayer that are not worship/adoration.

THAT is forbidden, and THAT is what Catholics do with Mary and the (so-called) saints. It is idolatry, sin, and a violation of God’s Holy Commandment to have no other god before Him.

Ok. Well, I guess you need to cling to this conception, for some reason that is important to you. Perhaps it serves you somehow in your attempt to relate with God.

It seems to me to be somewhat arrogant to preside over a judgement of what others are doing in prayer, when you don’t know them, and don’t understand their practices. But, I realize that there are many ignorant and bigoted people in the world, and there is not much that anything can be do for people who don’t want to learn any different.