Praying to Mary and the Saints

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I’ve run into non-Catholics who say that praying to Mary and the Saints is idolatry. Is there any biblical references to praying to saints in heaven? How do you defend this to a non-Catholic?
Thanks in advance
 
nick347 said:
I’ve run into non-Catholics who say that praying to Mary and the Saints is idolatry. Is there any biblical references to praying to saints in heaven? How do you defend this to a non-Catholic?
Thanks in advance
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First of all, there’s nothing for us Catholics to defend. It’s up to the person making the charge to prove that Catholics commit idolatry by asking for Mary and the saints’ intercession. We do not “call them up” as in a seance, we simply address our needs to our brethren in heaven, who are living members of the body of Christ, just as we are.

Jesus himself said that the dead are not dead but alive to God. Make them look it up–it’s in at least two of the synoptic Gospels. In Scripture are exhorted to pray for one another. Ask them when that command ends? At death? If they answer yes, ask them to prove it. 😉

They are the ones who have abandoned hundreds of years of Christian belief and practice, not us. The Communion of Saints is believed by other Protestant bodies besides us Catholics, such as the Lutherans and Episcopalians. Ask why those Christians believe it, if it is so obvious that it is idolatry.
 
If I may add something. According to a Jewish tradition that dates before A.D., the ancestors offer weeping and supplication on our behalf as it is stated in the Talmud. This is a very similar teaching to the Communion of Saints. As it is today, I imagine it was a common practice to converse with the ancestors laid to rest as it is commonly believed that they watch over us, guide us, and pray for us. Though Jewish people who do not observe this custom consider it to be superstitious, they don’t consider it to be idolatry. Idolatry is a unique sin where one worships, not merely prays to, someone or something other than God.
 
nick347 said:
I’ve run into non-Catholics who say that praying to Mary and the Saints is idolatry. Is there any biblical references to praying to saints in heaven? How do you defend this to a non-Catholic?
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...
There are no examples of the living praying to saints in heaven in the Bible that I’m aware of. BUT ----
  1. All the apostolic churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, etc) believe in saintly intercession. So that is about 2/3 of Christianity. Protestants are the odd man out here.
  2. There are clear references in the bible to the saints and angels in heaven praying for us (2 Maccabees 15, Apocalypse 5, Tobit 12)
  3. When Jesus is on the cross, and cries out, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”, the witnesses assume He is asking the dead prophet Elias for assistance. No one seems to think there is anything odd about calling upon a dead person for help. In fact, the witnesses stand back and say, “He’s calling Elias! Lets see if he comes!” Now Jesus wasn’t actually praying to Elias. They misunderstood him. The point is, they *thought *He was praying to Elias, and they also thought there’s a good chance that Elias might actually show up. Now, how would that be possible if they believed the dead in heaven don’t hear us? The fact that they expectantly watched and waited for Elias to come indicates that they were well aware of the dead in heaven’s ability to hear and help us.
  4. This has nothing to do with the topic, but many Protestants practice idolatry. They have elevated the Bible to the status of Godhood, as if the book supernaturally floated down from heaven on angel’s feathers right into the hands of King James.
 
nick347 said:
I’ve run into non-Catholics who say that praying to Mary and the Saints is idolatry. Is there any biblical references to praying to saints in heaven? How do you defend this to a non-Catholic?
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...
For the defense part: Ask this question- Isn’t it ok to ask for a friend to pray for you (if you are sick, suffering, in need of help)? Then why is it not ok to ask Mary or any other saint (anyone in heaven) to pray for you?
Here is a link to direct you to the answers relating to this topic which has been answered by C.A. (and it has been certified as being free of doctrinal or moral errors):
catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

Peace be with you!
 
nick347 said:
I’ve run into non-Catholics who say that praying to Mary and the Saints is idolatry. Is there any biblical references to praying to saints in heaven? How do you defend this to a non-Catholic?
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Here are a few of the basic passages that support praying to the saints and angels: 1) “Bless the Lord, O you his angels” (Psalms 103:20) “Bless the Lord, all his hosts” (Psalms 103:21) “Praise him, all his angels” – “Praise him, all his host” (Psalms 148:1-2) “Rejoice over her, O heaven, O saints and apostles and prophets.” (Revelation 18:20)These verses show that we can address the saints and angels in heaven when we pray. The difference between the prayer, “Bless the Lord, all his hosts” and “Pray for me, all his hosts” is only the difference between two kinds of prayer. Either way you are addressing the people in heaven, it’s just that if you pray the first way, you’re asking the saints to pray with you, and if you pray the second way, you’re asking the saints to pray for you.2) “[T]he twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb…[with] incense, which [is] the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:8) “And another angel came…and he was given much incense to [offer] with the prayers of all the saints.” (Revelation 8:3)These verses tell us two things about the saints in heaven. First, they have our prayers and they bring them before God. This shows that they’ve received them. The “incense” of prayer rises to the saints according to this passage. That shows the saints being prayed to at the very least by some people. Second, the saints in heaven are praying about our prayers. People don’t fall down before God for nothing. Rev. 8:3 makes this clearer by saying that incense-prayer from heaven was added to the incense-prayer from earth. This shows us that the saints in heaven add their prayers to ours. Therefore, they receive our prayers, present them to God, and join their prayers to ours.3) “[Jacob] strove with the angel and prevailed, [then] he wept and sought his favor.” (Hosea 12:4) “[T]he angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads.” (Genesis 48:16)These passages show angels being prayed to. Jacob prayed to an angel for his favor and then later asks him to bless his children. The Hosea passage is clarified by Genesis 32:24-29, where Jacob says to the angel, “I will not let you go, unless you bless me.” Some people argue that the angel was actually God because in verse 30 Jacob says, “I have seen God face to face,” but Hosea 12:4 says it was an angel. Genesis 32:30 could mean that Jacob thought the angel was God, or understood that angels bear with them the real presence of God. It is also significant that God has no body. That means the reference to His face is symbolic. It refers to God’s presence.4) “[A]t your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir. Hear, O daughter, consider, and incline your ear; forget your people and your father’s house; and the king will desire your beauty. Since he is your lord, bow to him; the people of Tyre will sue your favor with gifts, the richest of the people with all kinds of wealth.” (Psalms 45:9-13)This passage is in a messianic psalm and discusses the woman who will stand at the right hand of the Messiah. The woman is Mary and it says specifically that the people of faraway nations “will sue [her] favor with gifts.” This passage shows us that Mary can be prayed to, but it’s also significant because it is a prophecy that is only fulfilled in the Catholic Church. Protestant churches don’t even claim that there is a woman who all the nations seek for her favor, but the Bible says there would be, and she would stand at the right hand of the Messiah.5) “Grace to you and peace from him who is, and was, and is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before his throne.” (Revelation 1:4)In this passage St. John invokes a blessing upon the churches in Asia. He did not only invoke grace from God, but from angels. An invocation is a form of prayer which calls down a blessing on someone. In this passage he calls it down from God and seven angels, which shows us a prayer to the angels.

Let me know if that is helpful.
 
nick347 said:
I’ve run into non-Catholics who say that praying to Mary and the Saints is idolatry. Is there any biblical references to praying to saints in heaven? How do you defend this to a non-Catholic?
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Prayer and worship are two different things.
 
Saints_Alive said:
Prayer and worship are two different things.
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I agree.

However many people trying to ‘disprove’ prayer to Saints or dead people of the Church believe that prayer and worship are the same thing… for whatever reason.

Prayer -a petition; entreaty.

Worship-reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

Both from: Dictionary.com

However some of the other definitions for ‘Prayer’ suggest that it is normally used in the terms of talking to something you worship… but prayer itself is not worship.

If it is worship, people better stop asking others to pray for them about ----insert here----.

I do not currently see anything wrong with asking St. Whoever to pray for you about --insert here---- unless you feel in your soul that it is dishonoring God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. It is no different than asking your nearest pew sitter.

However If anything, while praying, I would pay attention to the words used in prayers if it is a ‘prewritten’ prayer and make sure you stay away from the line of ‘worship’.
 
TheSeeker2014 said:
I agree.

However many people trying to ‘disprove’ prayer to **Saints or dead people **of the Church believe that prayer and worship are the same thing… for whatever reason…
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The return question, are the people in Heaven alive or dead? Did not Christ promise the faithful everlasting life? Did Christ lie? Or are the people still alive

If they are alive, does not James 5:16 apply to them? Do the commandment of God cease in Heaven? They therefore must pray, but no for others who are in Heaven, but clearly for us, who suffer trials on Earth

And finally, make sure they they understand the distinction between prayer and worshio

The verb ‘to pray’ simply means to ask, to implore, to humbly request

Think on Hamlet Act 1, Scene II. Queen Gerturde says to her son, Hamlet " I pray thee, stay with us, go not to Wittenburg"

She is clearly not worshiping her son, but asking him something.

Can one human not ask (pray) something of another human?
 
The word worship also has more than one meaning. At one time it simply meant honoring, as in the old wedding vows: “With my body I thee worship…” That’s not adoration, as in idol worship, it’s honoring the other by saying “I give you my all”–understood within the context of marriage.

Also, worship of the kind that is adoration of a god or God entails offering a sacrifice. All through Scripture when the patriarchs offered worship to God they offered a sacrifice. Catholics continue this form of worship in the sacrifice of the Mass, in which we re-present the Christ’s one offering of his body and blood, soul and divinity. We don’t offer such sacrafices to Mary or the saints–perhaps some flowers to adorn a statue, but that’s hardly on par with the sacrifice of Calvary and is only veneration, not adoration.
 
Brendan said:
The return question, are the people in Heaven alive or dead? Did not Christ promise the faithful everlasting life? Did Christ lie? Or are the people still alive

If they are alive, does not James 5:16 apply to them? Do the commandment of God cease in Heaven? They therefore must pray, but no for others who are in Heaven, but clearly for us, who suffer trials on Earth

And finally, make sure they they understand the distinction between prayer and worshio

The verb ‘to pray’ simply means to ask, to implore, to humbly request

Think on Hamlet Act 1, Scene II. Queen Gerturde says to her son, Hamlet " I pray thee, stay with us, go not to Wittenburg"

She is clearly not worshiping her son, but asking him something.

Can one human not ask (pray) something of another human?
Click to expand...
I said ‘dead people of the Church’ for the sake of protestant wording. I know their soul is alive.

And as I stated above, I agree, praying is a petition, communication and not worship.
 
At the core I believe the issue for most Protestants comes down to a misunderstanding, as already alluded to, of prayer and worship.

For most Protestants, myself included before I was introduced to the Lord Jesus’s friends and family in the communion of the saints in the Catholic Church, prayer is ONLY addressed to God. Thus every prayer is a sort of act of worship, that is, of adoration of the one to whom the prayer is addressed. So it goes that prayer cannot be addressed to any saint, alive or “dead”.

Yes, you are wondering, well, then, what about asking a friend to pray for you. Well, in their eyes, “asking a friend” is not “prayer”. Because at some time in history, “prayer” as in “pray ye” the “request” became an act of adoration in their minds, an act of “latria” reserved to God.

How did this come about? Well, first and foremost because of a collapse of doctrine, a deflation of belief in the real and true Church. And without a full and complete faith in the promises of Christ in handing the keys of the kingdom to St Peter, and the authority to loose and bind to the Church, well, it only follows that there would be a loss of connection, a loss of “communion of the saints”. Indeed, the Apostles Creed means less and less with the passing of every generation of schismatics.

For us in the Church, it is of course different. We see the saints in heaven as our true friends who have gone before us. Thus we ask them for help and we ask them to pray for us, just as those who went to Mary at Cana for assistance and just as I ask my wife to pray for me here and now. It really IS that simple. They, the saints in heaven, due to their real proximity to God in Glory can pray for us in ways we cannot pray for ourselves.

Now there is one other issue for those who reject prayer to the saints in heaven.

That is, “How do we know they ARE in heaven?”

That is also simple.

We know by the authority Christ gave the Church and the process by which that authority is exercised by the Church. The Church does not officially declare any “damned” and few overall sainted, but some She does declare to be at the throne of our Lord in heaven. We SEE them in the vision of St John in Revelation, crying for the blood of the martyrs, presenting our case before God Himself. What a mystery! What a blessed mystery!

Did the Church “make them saints”? Well no. The Church does however declare them to be saints. The Church grants that stamp of understanding to all that these are ones who truly have gone forth in full faith in our Lord Jesus and His work. and why SHOULDN’T the Church be aware of them and able to declare to us who some of them are? And so we find them examples, not perfect here but perfected there. Caring for us and in the presence of God. And so we ask for the prayers of our friends on earth and our friends in heaven.

Indeed, why should we ask a friend on earth who has yet to prove his faith before God to pray for us? Doesn’t THAT seem less safe than praying for one who has demonstrated faith to the end?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Praised be that God.
 
Valdemar said:
At the core I believe the issue for most Protestants comes down to a misunderstanding, as already alluded to, of prayer and worship.

For most Protestants, myself included before I was introduced to the Lord Jesus’s friends and family in the communion of the saints in the Catholic Church, prayer is ONLY addressed to God. Thus every prayer is a sort of act of worship, that is, of adoration of the one to whom the prayer is addressed. So it goes that prayer cannot be addressed to any saint, alive or “dead”.

Yes, you are wondering, well, then, what about asking a friend to pray for you. Well, in their eyes, “asking a friend” is not “prayer”. Because at some time in history, “prayer” as in “pray ye” the “request” became an act of adoration in their minds, an act of “latria” reserved to God.

How did this come about? Well, first and foremost because of a collapse of doctrine, a deflation of belief in the real and true Church. And without a full and complete faith in the promises of Christ in handing the keys of the kingdom to St Peter, and the authority to loose and bind to the Church, well, it only follows that there would be a loss of connection, a loss of “communion of the saints”. Indeed, the Apostles Creed means less and less with the passing of every generation of schismatics.

For us in the Church, it is of course different. We see the saints in heaven as our true friends who have gone before us. Thus we ask them for help and we ask them to pray for us, just as those who went to Mary at Cana for assistance and just as I ask my wife to pray for me here and now. It really IS that simple. They, the saints in heaven, due to their real proximity to God in Glory can pray for us in ways we cannot pray for ourselves.

Now there is one other issue for those who reject prayer to the saints in heaven.

That is, “How do we know they ARE in heaven?”

That is also simple.

We know by the authority Christ gave the Church and the process by which that authority is exercised by the Church. The Church does not officially declare any “damned” and few overall sainted, but some She does declare to be at the throne of our Lord in heaven. We SEE them in the vision of St John in Revelation, crying for the blood of the martyrs, presenting our case before God Himself. What a mystery! What a blessed mystery!

Did the Church “make them saints”? Well no. The Church does however declare them to be saints. The Church grants that stamp of understanding to all that these are ones who truly have gone forth in full faith in our Lord Jesus and His work. and why SHOULDN’T the Church be aware of them and able to declare to us who some of them are? And so we find them examples, not perfect here but perfected there. Caring for us and in the presence of God. And so we ask for the prayers of our friends on earth and our friends in heaven.

Indeed, why should we ask a friend on earth who has yet to prove his faith before God to pray for us? Doesn’t THAT seem less safe than praying for one who has demonstrated faith to the end?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Praised be that God.
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An excellent analysis, indeed. 👍
 
TheSeeker2014 said:
I said ‘dead people of the Church’ for the sake of protestant wording. I know their soul is alive.
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I know, that is why I phrased it as a counter question, to get the person you are talking to to really think about what they are saying 🙂
 
wonka3178 said:
If I may add something. According to a Jewish tradition that dates before A.D., the ancestors offer weeping and supplication on our behalf as it is stated in the Talmud. This is a very similar teaching to the Communion of Saints. As it is today, I imagine it was a common practice to converse with the ancestors laid to rest as it is commonly believed that they watch over us, guide us, and pray for us. Though Jewish people who do not observe this custom consider it to be superstitious, they don’t consider it to be idolatry. Idolatry is a unique sin where one worships, not merely prays to, someone or something other than God.
Click to expand...
You can see the Jewish belief in the intercession of saints in chapter 15 of 2 Maccabees, where Onias and Jeremias are shown praying for the people of Israel.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Maccabees+15&version=DRA
 
TheSeeker2014 said:
I agree.

However many people trying to ‘disprove’ prayer to Saints or dead people of the Church believe that prayer and worship are the same thing… for whatever reason.

Prayer -a petition; entreaty.

Worship-reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

Both from: Dictionary.com

However some of the other definitions for ‘Prayer’ suggest that it is normally used in the terms of talking to something you worship… but prayer itself is not worship.

If it is worship, people better stop asking others to pray for them about ----insert here----.

I do not currently see anything wrong with asking St. Whoever to pray for you about --insert here---- unless you feel in your soul that it is dishonoring God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. It is no different than asking your nearest pew sitter.

However If anything, while praying, I would pay attention to the words used in prayers if it is a ‘prewritten’ prayer and make sure you stay away from the line of ‘worship’.
Click to expand...
Any time I ask the intercession of Mary or a saint, I usually end with “our Father in Heaven’s will be done”. My way of accepting the result of my petition.
 
When we pray to Mary and the Saints… we’re ‘asking’ for intercession. Jesus said to Mary, ‘ask, for I cannot refuse you’.

If you look at the Wedding at Cana, Jesus did not refuse His mother. And, if you look at His crucifixion, Jesus said, ‘Behold your Mother, Behold your son.’ Jesus is sharing His mother with us. She is our heavenly Mother and we love her.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19881123en.html
 
sudy said:
When we pray to Mary and the Saints… we’re ‘asking’ for intercession. Jesus said to Mary, ‘ask, for I cannot refuse you’.

If you look at the Wedding at Cana, Jesus did not refuse His mother. And, if you look at His crucifixion, Jesus said, ‘Behold your Mother, Behold your son.’ Jesus is sharing His mother with us. She is our heavenly Mother and we love her.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

1 Kings 2:20 She said, ‘I have one small request to make you; do not refuse me.’ ‘Mother,’ the king replied, ‘make your request, for I shall not refuse you.’

If Solomon can say this to his mother, why can’t Jesus?
 
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