Praying to Mary

[sony]

Where in the scriptures does it guide us to pray to Mary or any of the saints for that matter? And if there’s no support then where does this doctrine arrive?

 

[johnpaullover]

It doesn’t say that you are required to do this. It isn’t a DOCTRINE anyways. It’s a practice or tradition.

And where does Holy Writ support it? Well, even if it doesn’t, we don’t have to take the bible ALONE, do we? Or do we?

 

[sony]

The Scriptures were determined through the Cannon. They came up throgh the Catholic Church, later some of them were reconfirmed throug hthe Ded Sea Scrolls. IF we dont believe in the Bible, and take it at face value, then we have nothing to stand on.

 

[Church_Militant]

Praying to the Saints

The Intercession of the Saints

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.
The Intercession of Saints (From the early church)

In the words of my friends at The Mary Foundation:
Get the facts: Decide for yourself.
Pax tecum,

 

[johnpaullover]

sony:

The Scriptures were determined through the Cannon. They came up throgh the Catholic Church, later some of them were reconfirmed throug hthe Ded Sea Scrolls. IF we dont believe in the Bible, and take it at face value, then we have nothing to stand on.

YOu have one problem, One of the Dead Sea Scrolls is one of the books that Martin Luther and John Calvin threw out of the bible.

 

[sony]

Psalm 103 seems more of a declaration and also an encouragement in the assembly of praise. James 5:16 is brought into context by James 5:13-15 (so this might be a bit of a reach) but let me say it’s interesting. Something I’m reading and considering.
Any other information that might help out?

 

[sony]

By the way, which Dead Sea Scroll did Martin Luther Or Calvin throw out? Any way that can be researched?

 

[johnpaullover]

sony:

By the way, which Dead Sea Scroll did Martin Luther Or Calvin throw out? Any way that can be researched?

I’m not sure. I’m not even sure if that’s right. But, yes. The Bible is infallible. What I’m saying is that we aren’t mountain goats. We cannot stand on 73 books (catholic bible) as a sole rule of faith. Let alone 66 (protestant bible).

Wait! Isn’t 666 the number of the beast? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Anyway, this is getting off topic. We are here to discuss Marian intercession, right?

Where in scripture does it prohibit praying to the saints, or, strictly speaking, pleading for their intercession.

There is a whole host of saints in heaven praying for the whole world. If God sometimes only acts when we cry out to him and say, “Abba, father” then why should the saints be any different when asked for intercession

 

[CalledtoServe]

sony:

Where in the scriptures does it guide us to pray to Mary or any of the saints for that matter? And if there’s no support then where does this doctrine arrive?

Sony, there is a wonderful little book called “Any Friend of God’s is a Friend of Mine” by Patrick Madrid. This $3 book is packed with lots of information which may answer your questions on Mary & the Saints.

 

[sony]

Did you mean fallable or infallable? I’m not sure if I’m clear on that.
Anyway, back to the subject. I’‘d have to research the Bible to see if it says to or not to pray to the Heavenly Hosts/saints.
But here’s a comnsideration:
When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, He directed them to pray to their Father in heaven. Matt 6:9-13 “Our Father Who art in heaven…”
Luke 11:2-4 He didint’ direct them to the angels, or the saints, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who were in heaven. But I can look into it more for you.

 

[johnpaullover]

sony:

Did you mean fallable or infallable? I’m not sure if I’m clear on that.
Anyway, back to the subject. I’‘d have to research the Bible to see if it says to or not to pray to the Heavenly Hosts/saints.
But here’s a comnsideration:
When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, He directed them to pray to their Father in heaven. Matt 6:9-13 “Our Father Who art in heaven…”
Luke 11:2-4 He didint’ direct them to the angels, or the saints, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who were in heaven. But I can look into it more for you.

That is a scriptural crime. Reading into the text.

I’m not sure what you mean by being confused about the infallibility of scripture. If you mean…
If you believe the bible is fallible, you are not christian. Not even protestant.

Extremely doubtful that that’s what you meant, but it was worth a shot.

Or…

Infallibility means. Inerrant. No errors. Fallibility means, probability of being errant. With errors.

 

[Todd_Easton]

First, not everything that Christians are to believe and observe is found in the Bible. The Bible says that there were many things Jesus did which would never be written down. (John 21:25) St. Paul told Christians to hold to the traditions he delivered to them whether written or spoken. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

Now to the matter at hand, here are some things to consider:

1. Why would you ask the Blessed Virgin Mary or other saints in heaven to pray for you? The same reason you might ask any devout Christian on earth to pray for you. “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” (James 5:16) St. Paul was not too proud to ask other Christians to pray for him; “Brethren, pray for us.” (1 Thessalonians 5:25).
2. God is pleased to work wonders through his friends, both the living, as when Peter and Paul worked miracles while alive, and the dead, as when Samuel prophesied after his death (1 Samuel 28:16-19) and when Elisha raised the dead after his own death (2 Kings 13:21). Also see Sirach 46:20 and 48:14.
3. The departed are solicitous for welfare of the living as in the story Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus where even the rich man in torment expressed concern for his brothers whom he knew to still be alive. (Luke 16:27-28) Also see 2 Macabees 15:12-14 where the deceased Onias and Jeremiah are described as fervently praying for the Jewish community.
4. Can the saints in heaven hear us when we pray? In Hebrews, St. Paul assures us that those in heaven are near to us, “We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.” (Hebrews 12:1) Also see Hebrews 12:22. Jesus himself assures us that what we do on earth is known to those in heaven when he said that there is joy in heaven when a sinner converts. (Luke 15:7) Jesus also assures us that if we ask in faith even distant mountains will hear us. (Matthew 21:21)
5. With the proper disposition, it is even a good thing to address the the angels and saints in heaven directly, as David did in Psalm 103:21-22 and Psalm 148:2 where he addressed angels directly. The three youths likewise addressed the angels directly from the belly of the fiery furnace (Daniel 3:58) and from where they also addressed the righteous dead: “Spirits and souls of the just, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.” (Daniel 3:86) (Note: these last two are deuterocanonical verses of Daniel.) Mary certainly addressed the angel Gabriel directly when he appeard to her and announced that she was to become the mother of Jesus. (Luke 1:34, 38) St. Paul certainly had no qualms about addressing evil spirits directly. (Acts 16:18)

In conclusion, although there is no explicit reference in the Bible of anyone asking the Blessed Virgin Mary or the other saints in heaven to pray for them, the above considerations should show that such a practice in not contrary to Sacred Scripture but, in fact, can be a praiseworthy practice. A practice well-documented in other extant writings of early Christians as mentioned by another forum poster.

 

[sony]

Yes I do believe that the scriptures are the sovereign word of God, and for that we can stand on them for faith.
As far as reading into text. Taking Jesus model prayer and not adding to it is a safe place to land, but seeing Samuel’s prophesy after he was dead to King Saul after he had gone to a seer to get information from the prophet,(which was striclty forbidden by God’s law and Samule rebuked him) seems like shaky ground to me to building tradition or doctrine.
Also, the events that Jesus did that were not written down, John 21:25, that leaves it open ended. Obviously what ever Jesus did was good, but if we don’t know what they were, we have nothing to go on . We can’t base tradition or doctrine on that either. We have to go back to Scripture and what we know to be true. I guess what St Paul SPOKE, would fall into the same category because we simply don’t know. It’s too open for speculation.

 

[Genesis315]

Sony,

ChurchMilitant showed you where the author of the Psalms, under divine inspiration, prays to angels in Heaven. And I’m sure you believe Scripture is God-breathed. So therefore God must think it’s good to pray to angels. Since Jesus opened the gates to Heaven, the saints there are basically in the same position as angels, as we can see in the book of Revelation.

 

[Todd_Easton]

sony:

We have to go back to Scripture and what we know to be true…It’s too open for speculation.

Wrong. Scripture is wonderful when proper interpreted but Scripture is self-admitted hard to understand and easily misinterpreted or twisted. (2 Peter 3:16) That was written to people of the same time, language, and culture as the authors. The situation is much worse today. The New Testament was written 2000 years ago in a now dead culture, in a now dead language, by men who are now also dead. The books of the New Testament in their original Koine Greek autographs were completely inspired and error-free. However, none of those originals survives. All we have now are handwritten copies of copies, etc. with thousands of text variations. Bible scholars and translators try to determine the original words and meanings but the best they can do is make educated guesses as to what was written and what it meant and their educated guesses are often consciously or unconsciously influenced by their personal theological prejudices.

The only way to know the real truth of the Christian faith is to go to “the pillar and bulwark of the truth,” the Church of the living God, the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the 2000 year old living witness to “the faith delivered once for all to the saints.” The Church of Christ cannot be reversed engineered from the Bible because our understanding of the Bible in uncertain, as mentioned above, and because not all that was delivered by the apostles (apostolic traditions) which must be held to was written down, some of it was only spoken. (2 Thessalonians 2:15) Besides, even if it were possible, there is no need to reverse engineer the Church of Christ from the Bible because the Church of Christ which gave us the Bible, canonized the Bible, knows the proper interpretation of the Bible, and has continuously preserved the Bible is still here today, as it has always been, in the Catholic Church.

Can the Catholic Church be trusted? Yes, if Jesus can be trusted, because Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church and Jesus promised to be with his Church until the end of the world. (Matthew 16:18; 28:20) All who pretend that the Church of Christ, the Catholic Church, somehow fell into error regarding matters of faith and morals and needed to be reinvented, restored, reformed, etc., have no faith in Christ’s promises. Yes, the moral lives of individual Christians from the lowest to the highest of offices often need reforming but, to pretend that the teachings of the Church were ever corrupted, denies the promises of Jesus.

The apostles ordained certain men as bishops (sometimes called elders or presbyters in the New Testament) to teach the truth as they had been taught from their Master, and they in turn ordained other men as bishops to do the same, and they others, etc. (Acts 14:23; 2 Timothy 2:2; Titus 1:5; Philippians 1:1) In this way, through this apostolic succession, there are men in the Catholic Church today who are ordained as bishops to teach the truth. It is to these ordained “pastors and teachers” (Epesians 4:11) that all Christians must “obey and submit” to in matters of faith and morals for the good of their souls. (Hebrews 13:17) In the exercise of their ministry throughout the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church these ordained bishops have periodically met together in Church councils just as they did in Jerusalem in New Testament times (Acts 15) and their decisions inspired by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28) are “to be observed” by all the faithful. (Acts 16:4)

 

[Todd_Easton]

Todd Easton:

Also see Sirach 46:20 and 48:14.

For those who do not have a copy of Sirach handy, Sirach 46:20 says of Samuel,Even after he had fallen asleep he prophesied and revealed to the king his death and lifted up his voice out of the earth in prophecy, to blot out the wickedness of the people.

And Sirach 48:13-14 says of Elisha,Nothing was too hard for him, and when he was dead his body prophesied. As in his life he did wonders, so in death his deeds were marvelous.

 

[Todd_Easton]

sony:

…seeing Samuel’s prophesy after he was dead to King Saul after he had gone to a seer to get information from the prophet,(which was striclty forbidden by God’s law and Samule rebuked him) seems like shaky ground to me to building tradition or doctrine.

The passage from 1 Samuel 28:16-19 was cited in support of the truth that God is sometimes pleased to work wonders through his dead friends. Nothing more. The use of a medium to conjure the dead is, as you said, forbidden by God and forbidden by the Catholic Church. Despite the use of a medium by Saul, the truth remains that in this Scripture we find God working a wonder through his dead friend Samuel, just as He has continuously worked wonders through the Catholic saints in heaven thoughout the Church’s 2000 year history. In fact, in the current canonization process of saints in the Catholic Church, a process that goes back a few hundred years, I think, evidence of such divine wonders worked through a person after his death is required before that person is canonized a saint and there are thousands of Catholic saints.

 

[Fergal]

sony:

Where in the scriptures does it guide us to pray to Mary or any of the saints for that matter? And if there’s no support then where does this doctrine arrive?

1. Neither scripture nor tradition teach us to pray to Mary. Catholics may pray ***through ***Mary. The Church ***recommends ***praying for her intercession as a very noble aspiration. Scripture does, however, reveal the power of Mary’s intercession at the wedding of Cana.
2. There is no doctrine requiring us to pray to Mary. There is no doctrine requiring us to pray through her either. There are numerous documents on all levels encouraging us to cultivate a practice of making prayer through her. It is best described in one of our hymns “O gentle, chaste and spotless maid, we sinners make our prayers through thee, remind thy son that He has paid the price of our iniquity”

Now I pose you a question and would appreciate a direct answer as I have just given to you.
Did God have to come to mankind through Mary?

 

[john_ennis]

Doesn’t it seem that, if you agree that it is good for us to pray for each other (and ask each others to pray for us) then, to ask those who are ALIVE in heaven, closer to God than ever before, and capable of loving the whole Body of Christ as never before, is a perfectly consistent thing to do, unless the Bible says otherwise?

It’s really baffling that some Christians say “Show me where the Bible says to do that,” when they should be asking, "Show me where the Bible says “DON’T ask saints to pray for you (they’re in a special category!).”

Peace.
John

 

[sony]

Did God have to come to mankind through Mary?

Besides the prophesies? I think you have something else that you want to share and I’m totally open to it. I don’t have a direct answer.