J
Jedda
Guest
But these people are dead and gone, unlike the people who are your example.
How is that the same?
- Status
How is that the same?
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
like the man who called himself “Muhammad” you mean?
J
Jedda
Guest
as of now you are on my ignore button so go away!like the man who called himself “Muhammad” you mean?
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
oooh!
it is a perfectly valid point, you have to admit - Muslims pray for the man who called himself “Muhammad”, not only that but they pray to him 5 times a day
you for your own reasons can’t see the parallels
best to ignore someone if you can’t answer their point tho - please feel free…
likewise people will feel free to ignore your question if they feel that you’re actually looking for an answer (like I do)
J
Jayda
Guest
hola
im not sure if anybody read my last three posts but if so and if there are any additional questions maybe i could convey them to the monastary i usually pose these to…
Dominus Vobiscum
im not sure if anybody read my last three posts but if so and if there are any additional questions maybe i could convey them to the monastary i usually pose these to…
Dominus Vobiscum
J
Jedda
Guest
I will go back and read them.
J
Jedda
Guest
I understand what you are saying but it still sounds like prayer.
J
Jayda
Guest
hola Jedda,I understand what you are saying but it still sounds like prayer.
si… it is prayer. but prayer in Catholicism means something differently than what i think you are talking about… prayer is communication, it is not inherently worship. you use prayer to communicate with somebody in heaven. the character of worship only comes when it is toward God.
que Dios te bendiga
J
Jedda
Guest
How do you know the dead will intercede? or if they can?
J
Jayda
Guest
hola
i do not know if you had time to look up that passage about the rich man and Abraham, but it might answer your question. the dead will intercede if it is righteous to do so. for example you may not ask God to kill somebody for you… that would be sinful. so you could not whitewash this by asking your living best friend or a long dead saint to ask God to kill somebody for you…
that is why Abraham responded to the man in Hell that he would not ask God to do anything on his behalf. the man was in Hell as the result of a wasted life, God had already judged him, so only God could release him… Abraham would not even ask God.
but if it is for something righteous then the Saint will ask God on your behalf like in 2 Maccabees. we may not ask Saints for things they are not allowed to do…
the only things they are allowed to do is pray for us or be with us as a guide or protector from God… like a temporary guardian angel in certain situations.
we know Saints can pray to God because everybody can pray to God… they do not have special powers for being Saints that allows them to pray to God and you may not. the only reason for intercession with a Saint is that God said the prayers of the righteous are always given greater weight… but God hears everyones’ prayers and he is fair and merciful.
that is why intercession is not compulsory, it is only something the Church says you are allowed to do and may elect to.
que Dios te bendiga
R
Rocky
Guest
Jedda,
If you ask a friend to pray for you, how do you know that friend will intercede–actually pray for you. How do you know if your friend’s prayers are efficacious and that God will listen to her on your behalf?
You don’t know, but still you are willing to ask in the hope that God will listen more closely to both of you.
It’s no different when I ask a saint to help me with prayer. I am really placing my hope in God.
If you ask a friend to pray for you, how do you know that friend will intercede–actually pray for you. How do you know if your friend’s prayers are efficacious and that God will listen to her on your behalf?
You don’t know, but still you are willing to ask in the hope that God will listen more closely to both of you.
It’s no different when I ask a saint to help me with prayer. I am really placing my hope in God.
J
Jedda
Guest
i guess my problem is the dead and the living; I see them as different.
J
Jayda
Guest
hola Jedda,
i think you are right… it would be difficult for a person to have faith in or even intellectually accept the things we Catholics believe until that person can accept death as no different or significant than crossing the threshold as one walks from one room into an adjacent room. sentience continues when biological life ends, not even science can clearly explain why.
Dominus Vobiscum
i think you are right… it would be difficult for a person to have faith in or even intellectually accept the things we Catholics believe until that person can accept death as no different or significant than crossing the threshold as one walks from one room into an adjacent room. sentience continues when biological life ends, not even science can clearly explain why.
Dominus Vobiscum
F
FCEGM
Guest
Yes, that would be a problem in trying to understanding the Church’s teaching vis-à-vis the Communion of the Saints. God, though, sees the reality of the life of the soul, whether on earth or in Heaven. For, you see, Baptism into Christ so incorporates the soul into Christ that whether alive on earth or alive in Heaven each soul united to Christ is likewise united to the others in Him, and this is what gives the soul the assurance of mutual love.
It is because of their (the Saints) incorporation into the Person of Jesus Christ that they (and the saints on earth) are able to participate in His righteous prayer. (One must have a deep sense of Christ’s indwelling in His Body, the Church, and in each member of that Body; without that sense it’s difficult, then, to “see” the interconnectedness of all the members with the Head and with each member no matter if they are on earth or in Heaven.)
St. John’s Revelation we find the Saints interceding and that they are very aware of what’s happening on earth. Two such examples: In Rev. 5:8 (also Rev. 8:3-4) the elders stand before the throne of the Lamb, before the altar in the heavenly sanctuary. They sing hymns of praise and offer up the prayers of the saints on earth, prayer which rises like billowing clouds of incense. In Rev. 6:9-10 the martyred saints are praying imprecatory prayers against their murderers, urging the Lord to avenge their deaths.
This demonstrates that their life in Glory is not one of stasis or passivity, but that they are actively engaged in the life of Glory and all that pertains to it. If they are calling for vengeance (according to the Will of God, since they will not pray against His Will) and a definite activity, how much more so will they be active by His Grace in praying that God’s Holy Will be accomplished in the lives of His people who yet remain on earth? Divine charity in the soul is not lessened, but increased in Heaven.
We read in Hebrews 12:1-2: “With so many witnesses in a great cloud all around us, we too, then, should throw off everything that weights us down and the sin that clings so closely, and with perseverance keep running in the race which lies before us.”
Hebrews 7:22-25: “This makes Jesus the surety of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.”
What is true of Jesus is true of us (by Grace) and for those united in Him. That is why there is a “cloud of witnesses” hovering around the living.
Further, we also know from Scripture that the angels watch over man (including the Son of Man: Mt. 4:11 & Lk. 22:43); therefore they are aware of man’s needs (not on their own power, of course, but by the power they are given by God). Since the angels are to be subject to us, why would the power of men and women in glory now be less than that of these angelic servants of God?
In the Beatific Vision Christ, within Whom the Blessed are more, not less, in union, shows the Blessed the petitions of the brethren on earth, as in God all things are seen. This is not difficult for God to do. Thus we can know with absolute certainty that the Saints know the petitions addressed to them in Christ.
Further, asking the intercession of the Saints is realistic humility. God hears everyone’s prayers; He does not thereby grant all that He hears - just as a human father hears all the child pleas of his offspring, but does not always grant them. God grants the prayers of the Just in Heaven, since they are in a position to be heard and accommodated, their will already being in sync with His. The faithful on earth are quite aware that they are not as pure as the Saints in Heaven. Good Christians are not in a state of sin, but they realistically know they are far from being perfectly in sync with God’s will, but those in heaven are.
continued. . .
F
FCEGM
Guest
And we are humans; which means that we are all in this boat together and not isolated individuals. It is therefore according to our nature created by God to do things together for a common purpose. It is our love for one another that impels us to pray for one another and to want others to pray for us. The Saints are our brothers and sisters who are in God’s Presence; but some people don’t like this interdependence.
The Christian Tradition from the beginning declares that the interest of the Saints in Heaven will be increased a hundredfold, because they will realize then more fully our needs and necessities. St. Jerome (350-420) is a striking witness to this fact. He writes:
The Christian Tradition from the beginning declares that the interest of the Saints in Heaven will be increased a hundredfold, because they will realize then more fully our needs and necessities. St. Jerome (350-420) is a striking witness to this fact. He writes:
I
inJESUS
Guest
if you mean that intercession is not in Islam, am afraid you are mistaken. The Shia believe in intercession; just because Sunni do not does not mean it’s not in the Quran.
H
holy_wood
Guest
Scripture
I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
**Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth. **
*Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family. *
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
**1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth. **
**1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family. **
**1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other. **
***Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”
Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.
Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love***.
I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
**Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth. **
*Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family. *
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
**1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth. **
**1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family. **
**1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other. **
***Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”
Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.
Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love***.
J
Jayda
Guest
hola
actually the sunnis believe in intercession (tawassul) too… so do sufis. the difference is that shias believe in intercession through their ayatollah’s too, but nobody but shias believe in ayatollahs…
que Dios te bendiga
actually the sunnis believe in intercession (tawassul) too… so do sufis. the difference is that shias believe in intercession through their ayatollah’s too, but nobody but shias believe in ayatollahs…
que Dios te bendiga
D
dolphinlove
Guest
Jedda,
What is the meaning of tawassul?
If you are struggling so much with this, look that up!
:banghead:
Ive given you plenty of explanations out of the bible through this thread, but yet its still not good enough for you.
Then when I gave you examples, you still wanted more.
Im not giving up, but what is the use of talking in circles?
What is the meaning of tawassul?
If you are struggling so much with this, look that up!
:banghead:
Ive given you plenty of explanations out of the bible through this thread, but yet its still not good enough for you.
Then when I gave you examples, you still wanted more.
Im not giving up, but what is the use of talking in circles?
C
cor
Guest
The magisterium of the Catholic Church teaches prayer to Mary and to the blessed and angels in heaven. I don’t know how this happened – I’m guessing as a result of some incompetent Catholic apologist – but a number of Catholics seem to not be aware of that. Let me quote from the website of the Holy See:
“Lastly, I ask you to** pray to the Blessed Virgin**, Queen of Peace, for the dead, the wounded, the refugees, the weeping and the suffering. May she, whom we invoked on the day of her Birth as the “dawn and hope of salvation”, be so also for the dear people of Timor, who with constant trust await a better future.”
Pope John Paul II
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/angelus/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_ang_12091999_en.html
“As I encourage the local Church and Catholic organizations, together with other international organizations, to persevere in the commitment to assist the evacuees, I ask you to pray to the Blessed Virgin to support with her maternal protection the efforts of all who are contributing to the pacification of souls and the return to normalcy”
Pope Benedict XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060531_en.html
And here’s a good theological explanation, also from a Pope, on how prayer to saints other than Mary differs from prayer to God and how prayer to Mary has something in common with prayer to God:
"So far from this derogating in any way from the honour due to God, as though it indicated that we placed greater confidence in Mary’s patronage than in God’s power, it is rather this which especially moves God, and wins His mercy for us. We are taught by the Catholic faith that we may pray not only to God himself, but also to the Blessed in heaven (Conc. Trill. Sess. xxv.), though in different manner; because we ask from God as from the Source of all good, but from the Saints as from intercessors. “Prayer,” says St. Thomas, “is offered to a person in two ways-one as though to be granted by himself; another, as to be obtained through him. In the first way we pray to God alone, because all our prayers ought to be directed to obtaining grace and glory, which God alone gives, according to those words of Psalm lxxxiii., 12, “The Lord will give grace and glory.” But in the second way we pray to holy angels and men, not that God may learn our petition through them, but that by their prayers and merits our prayers may be efficacious. Wherefore, it is said in the Apocalypse (viii., 4): “The smoke of the incense of the prayers of the Saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel” (Summa Theol. 2a tae, q. lxxxiii. a. iv.). Now, of all the blessed in heaven, who can compare with the august Mother of God in obtaining grace? Who seeth more clearly in the Eternal Word what troubles oppress us, what are our needs? Who is allowed more power in moving God? Who can compare with her in maternal affection? We do not pray to the Blessed in the same way as to God; for we ask the Holy Trinity to have mercy on us, but we ask all the Saints to pray for us (Ibid.). *Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God, so that the Church even addresses to her the words with which we pray to God: “Have mercy on sinners.” *The members of the Rosary Sodality, therefore, do exceedingly well in weaving together, as in a crown, so many salutations and prayers to Mary. For, so great is her dignity, so great her favour before God, that whosoever in his need will not have recourse to her is trying to fly without wings.”
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_12091897_augustissimae-virginis-mariae_en.html
These are just three out of a plethora of magisterial texts which teach praying to Mary or the blessed or angels.
The worship that is owed to God is called “latria” and it is constituted by acknowledgment and admiration of God as the supreme being. That doesn’t occur with prayer to Mary or to the saints.
- Status