R
roelblomsma
Guest
Yeah, very good link. Though many of the references are quite open for intepretation.
- Status
R
roelblomsma
Guest
YEah, I thought there should have been another thread dealing with this topic, but wel, didn’t look it up. Thanks!
D
DPMartin
Guest
Todd Easton
To use Daniel 3:86 is totally taking that verse out of context. 62 and 63 say
62
Sun and moon, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.
63
Stars of heaven, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.
In the interpretation of verse 86 would be teaching the same should be in relationship with the sun and the moon and the stars. Of which you know is incorrect.
And your ref. To Psalms is not praying to angles no more then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego.was praying to the sun moon and stars according to the Catholic Bible.
C
ckempston
Guest
This still makes no sense. The Catholic Bible says the same thing.
C
ckempston
Guest
Intercessory prayers all over the New Testament are asked for, received, and performed by Christians still on this earth. I’m not cutting anybody off, and you’re changing the subject. The fact is, there is no Biblical support for praying to departed Saints.
C
ckempston
Guest
Symbolic of the fact that our prayers actually reach God and are not in vain? It’s certainly not symbolic of the fact that God doesn’t have time to hear or answer our prayers and needs to delegate.
T
Todd_Easton
Guest
I disagree. Giving them divine worship is one thing and I don’t advocate that, but there is nothing wrong with addressing irrational beings or inanimate objects, such as asking them to praise God in their own irrational way, as there is nothing wrong with addressing rational beings on earth or in heaven, such as asking them to praise God in their own rational way. Consider Matthew 21:19-21 where Jesus addresses a fig tree and where he mentions addressing to a mountain:
19And seeing a fig tree by the wayside he went to it, and found nothing on it but leaves only. And he said to it, “May no fruit ever come from you again!” And the fig tree withered at once. 20When the disciples saw it they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither at once?” 21And Jesus answered them, "Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and never doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will be done.
Consider too exorcisms. There is nothing wrong with addressing evil spirits in exorcisms (see Acts 16:18) but you are saying it is wrong to address the saints and good angels in heaven?
R
roelblomsma
Guest
Yeah, I must agree. The part in Revelations 5:8 is not a good reference as a biblica defence for praying to the Saints.
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
Who has the authority to decide that Revelation’s heavenly vision and “This is My Body” are symbolic, and “He is risen” is not?
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
There is plenty of support for human communication with angels, which occurs throughout the Bible. According to Jesus, there is no difference between angels and humans in heaven:
[BIBLEDRB]Luke 20:36[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 22:30 [/BIBLEDRB]
Connect the dots.
P
pablope
Guest
There is, you just do not want to open your eyes to it. I will paraphrase a quote…To the unbeliever, any proof is not enough.
And nobody is stopping you from praying directly to God, as you may see fit. Just do not impose what you believe on others, or tell others what they believe without first understanding where they come from.
D
DPMartin
Guest
Todd Easton
thanks for the reply
Being in agreement, or not in agreement with you, is not the problem. Being in agreement with the Word of God is what God expects, and that is the problem.
The thread poster is asking if there be Scriptural ref. That shows praying to Saints. As some Catholics do. (None found.)
There are a lot of people that have faith that there is a heaven and a hell and spirits are, other then human form, or there will be an end to the world. But that isn’t what God the Father has called us to, through His Son, is it?
In reference to your mentioning “Faith”:
If that be the case, then why isn’t it sufficient to have the “Faith” to come to God the Father through the Son directly, who does want you to have a direct relationship with Him and it is by His Power invested in the Name of Jesus Christ, is prayer answered? To call upon any other name. Would that dishonor that? If you don’t have the expectation that God would honor His Word, in His Presence then what does that mean to Him? If you don’t see that you should come to the Father who is also in Heaven, when you have the birth right to do so, and Jesus gave of Himself for you to be able to, just what does that mean, in the Kingdom of Heaven?
In the OT, in the Presence of God was the privilege the Israelites had, they didn’t go to Moses nor Abraham (unless they were still in the flesh) they went to, where they were taught to by the Lord God to go to the dwelling place of the Lord their God (Tabernacle). It was required by law. Circumcision gave them the birth right to. And the prophets that they knew the Word of the Lord was with them they could only request from, while the prophet was still with them. There was no addressing them for request in Israeli history that is scriptural or sound teaching that were of God.
It is not the job of the Saints who have passed on to answer prayer. Their job is done. It is now our job to have a relationship with the Living God, in His Presence. They don’t need the faith anymore they are where they Trusted God the Father for, in His Son. This is what is shared with us through the Apostles. And their participation in the sharing is done. It is the next generations job to do the same.
1John:1:1: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2: (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3: That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4: And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
The Saints are not for the excusing of the lack of Trust in one’s relationship with the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit.
It’s not about their Faith, it’s about your Faith, and one can’t give, what one does not have.
T
Todd_Easton
Guest
Catholics don’t have an issue with anyone praying directly to God the Father. In fact, the chief liturgical prayer of the Catholic Church, the Mass, is one long prayer to God the Father.
Catholics simply recognize that there is nothing wrong with also addressing other creatures and asking them to do what is not contrary to the will of God, such as asking other Christians to pray for us, as St. Paul routine asked in his letters, or asking angels to praise God, as the psalmist did more than once, as cited in an earlier post, and as the three young men did from inside the fiery furnace (Daniel 3:58, another verse removed from the Christian Bible by the Protestant Reformers), or asking the spirits and souls of the just to praise God (Daniel 3:83, cited in an earlier post).
Since we know that the saints also pray for the living (2 Maccabees 15:12, 14, more verses removed from the Christian Bible by the Protestant Reformers), Catholics recognize too that there is nothing wrong with addressing the saints directly and asking them to pray for us.
In addition, since we know that the saints can effect miracles by the power of God working through them (Sirach 46:23 and Sirach 48:14-15, more verses removed from the Christian Bible by the Protestant Reformers; and 1 Samuel 28:19 and 2 Kings 13:21), Catholics recognize too that there is nothing wrong with addressing the saints directly and asking them for their miraculous assistance because God is happy to grant signs and wonders to be done through their intercession.
Catholics simply recognize that there is nothing wrong with also addressing other creatures and asking them to do what is not contrary to the will of God, such as asking other Christians to pray for us, as St. Paul routine asked in his letters, or asking angels to praise God, as the psalmist did more than once, as cited in an earlier post, and as the three young men did from inside the fiery furnace (Daniel 3:58, another verse removed from the Christian Bible by the Protestant Reformers), or asking the spirits and souls of the just to praise God (Daniel 3:83, cited in an earlier post).
Since we know that the saints also pray for the living (2 Maccabees 15:12, 14, more verses removed from the Christian Bible by the Protestant Reformers), Catholics recognize too that there is nothing wrong with addressing the saints directly and asking them to pray for us.
In addition, since we know that the saints can effect miracles by the power of God working through them (Sirach 46:23 and Sirach 48:14-15, more verses removed from the Christian Bible by the Protestant Reformers; and 1 Samuel 28:19 and 2 Kings 13:21), Catholics recognize too that there is nothing wrong with addressing the saints directly and asking them for their miraculous assistance because God is happy to grant signs and wonders to be done through their intercession.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
Let me contribute a small sample from my earlier link.
Rm 15:30, Col 4:3, 1 Thes 5:25, 2 Thes 3:1. Paul asks other saints to intercede for him all the time. If you reject praying to certain kinds of saints, then you impose qualifications onto Paul’s example that do not exist. I’ve read through your posts and have not seen you justify your qualifications.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
You say:
The prayers of the saints are in God’s presence.
The saints are in God’s presences.
But somehow the prayers are not in the saints’ presence.
That makes no sense.
Rather the actual text of Rev. 5:8 says the heavenly elders were holding the prayers of the saints.
D
DPMartin
Guest
MarcoPolo
thanks for the reply
Yes but Paul requested the prayers of others that were yet in the flesh that could read what he wrote or hear what he wrote, in the sense who he wrote it to. And he didn’t ask any one else who was not still in the flesh to pray for him, did he?
Why do, what Paul didn’t do?
N
Nathan_Wagar
Guest
You’re going to run into a problem attempting to use Saint Paul to deny prayers to saints, especially given a couple things specific to Pauline development of theology.
- There is no death in Christ, and we are all “alive in Christ” according to Paul.
- Considering his in-depth theology of the body of Christ, and combining that with his commentary in Hebrews Ch 11-12:1 regarding the great cloud of witnesses, there is even less reason to assume, based strictly on Paul’s epistles, that we should not ask saints to pray for us.
- Still taking into account his theology of the body of Christ, all exhortations by Paul to intercede on each other’s behalf should be seen as the logical extension of his argument.
A. There is no death in the body of Christ.
B. Paul asks us to have other parts of the body intercede for us.
C. He doesn’t have to say “pray to saints” because he has already said they aren’t dead, so it would be superfluous to make a distinction where Paul has already made clear that none exists.
You would have to specifically show a passage indicating a divide between the dead (in Christ), and the living in Christ. Passages such as the Transfiguration in the Gospels, the saints in Revelation aware of matters on earth, God judging earth because of the saints in heaven, the great cloud of witnesses, prayers for the quite possibly dead Onesiphorus, and the theology of the body of Christ should truly give you pause before you state otherwise.
Throw in a healthy dosage of the Church fathers on the matter, and I would urge you to seriously rethink your viewpoint on this matter.
D
DPMartin
Guest
MarcoPolo
thanks again for your reply
It is certainly not anyone’s right to determine what another man’s relationship with the Lord Jesus is. Jesus’ answer to Peter’s question about what was John to do, at the end of the Gospel according to John shows us that. Therefore only the Lord God determines what ones relationship to Him is. And without a relationship with Him, what is there that would be determined?
To use the position that the Church is not against a relationship with the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit might be a nice position for the world to have, and is no excuse for those in Christ (or say they are). And if you give it some thought, it is a secular position to not be against a belief they don’t believe, that the secular consider a righteous position (patting themselves on the back, for being nice guys, by not obligating others to be like them). But isn’t the reason for the Church to be the Church, is to be FOR the relationship with the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit?
Jn:10:1: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Jn:10:7: Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Mt:7:13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Who is the Way? Who is the Life? That Jesus speaks of here? And what is He referring to here, considering what was taught and carried out in the days of Moses? Didn’t Jesus fulfill these things?
Ex:25:9: According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
Even in revelations didn’t John see the same things? Wasn’t Jesus amongst the candlesticks?
Rev:1:
12: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Therefore the same still is, and to be in the Presence of God is still in the same place described in detail through Moses. There is the Door and there is the Gate of which there is only One Door One Gate into the court of the Tabernacle of congregation.
Ex:29:42: This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD: where I will meet you, to speak there unto thee.
Ex:33:7: And Moses took the tabernacle, and pitched it without the camp, afar off from the camp, and called it the Tabernacle of the congregation. And it came to pass, that every one which sought the LORD went out unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was without the camp.
Ex:40:33: And he reared up the court round about the tabernacle and the altar, and set up the hanging of the court gate. So Moses finished the work.
And while Jesus yet hung on the Cross and was still in the flesh just before He gave up the ghost.
Jn:19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
It should be noted that only the circumcised could go in the gate that was set up and hanged of the court.
Like the circumcised in the flesh, is the circumcised in the Holy Spirit of God. Though the circumcised can go in and out the gate for they are circumcised of which no one can remove. Their circumcision does not allow any one else who is not circumcised there in. For the circumcised are of the father Abraham through his chosen son Isaac who was sacrificed, through which Jacob received the inheritance of Jacob renamed Israel, and the rest are referred to by the Lord God Himself as, “the Children of Israel”. Hence the circumcision of the circumcised is of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. To be in the Presence of God, where He is, and He with you.
Hence a relationship with those who are circumcised in the Holy Spirit does not mean anything to God, unless you have a relationship with Him FIRST. And that relationship that is with the brethren, is in the edification and strengthening of the Faith and those who now are not with us in the flesh need no strengthening nor edification and it was while they were yet in the flesh did they edify and strengthen the brethren, fellowship, that is, in the Lord our God.
Moses didn’t bring the Israelites into the promised land, the Lord God of Moses brought the Israelites into the promised land.
If God don’t say it and do it. Then what is it that we know?
And another thing that should be noted, it is taught by the Lord God that one should not come empty handed before the Lord. Some one else’s offering is insufficient in one’s own case.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
In addition to Nathan’s reply, I reiterate—where do you see Paul saying only certain kinds of saints can be asked for intercession? It doesn’t say Paul asked anyone blonde for intercession. Shall we wait for the Scripture to be specific for any kind of saint before we ask that saint for intercession? Paul offers no qualification. He lays down the principle: it’s ok to ask other saints for intecession. I see DPMartin adding to the text qualifications to Paul’s example that do not exist.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
I’m not sure this entire post is a response to my post about the actual text of Rev. 5:8 (and also the angel passing on prayers in Rev. 8:4). Perhaps you meant to respond to someone else?
- Status