Praying to Saints in the Bible?

[NHInsider]

Symbolic of the fact that our prayers actually reach God and are not in vain? It’s certainly not symbolic of the fact that God doesn’t have time to hear or answer our prayers and needs to delegate.

Which is not, of course, what the practice of invoking saints is about. Nor is it about worshiping persons other than God, as suggested in post 17. . . .

Prayer to saints is no more and no less than asking a fellow-believer to pray for you. If you have ever asked another member of the body to pray for and with you, you have prayed to a saint. Because “pray” doesn’t mean “worship,” it means “ask.” And since we have been told both to pray FOR one another and to ask for the prayers of the elders, and since we believe that “nothing can separate us” who are members of His Body, there is no basis for believing that this mutual-intercession ends with our bodily deaths.

Revelations is full of symbolism, but Revelations 5:8 is actually one of the few places where the symbolism is explicated within the text - “bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”

 

[NHInsider]

Todd Easton
thanks for the reply

Being in agreement, or not in agreement with you, is not the problem. Being in agreement with the Word of God is what God expects, and that is the problem.

The thread poster is asking if there be Scriptural ref. That shows praying to Saints. As some Catholics do. (None found.)

This is completely off-topic, but is there a good reason you list your religious affiliation as Catholic when you seem pretty opposed to Catholic teaching?

In the OT, in the Presence of God was the privilege the Israelites had, they didn’t go to Moses nor Abraham (unless they were still in the flesh) they went to, where they were taught to by the Lord God to go to the dwelling place of the Lord their God (Tabernacle). It was required by law. Circumcision gave them the birth right to. And the prophets that they knew the Word of the Lord was with them they could only request from, while the prophet was still with them. There was no addressing them for request in Israeli history that is scriptural or sound teaching that were of God.

Sorry, but this is just incorrect.

Ordinary people did not and could not go before the Tabernacle, nor could they approach the Presence. Moses represented the Israelites before the Lord. The Levites were chosen by God to approach Him and offer sacrifice on behalf of the people. No one could enter the Holy of Holies except the High Priest, once a year. The priest who offered the morning and evening incense offering was chosen by lot, once in a life-time except under the most unusual of circumstances - they represented the entire nation before the Lord. In fact, one of the very radical things about Jesus’ message was the notion that each and every one of us is invited into an intimate relationship with the Lord.

And King Saul had already lost God’s favor before he paid a witch to conjure up Samuel, but Samuel really showed up and interacted with him - much to the shock of the witch!

It is not the job of the Saints who have passed on to answer prayer.

Only God answers prayer. No one is suggesting otherwise. Our prayer to saints requests their intercession. Possibly you oppose Catholic doctrine because you misunderstand it?

 

[DPMartin]

In addition to Nathan’s reply, I reiterate—where do you see Paul saying only certain kinds of saints can be asked for intercession? It doesn’t say Paul asked anyone blonde for intercession. Shall we wait for the Scripture to be specific for any kind of saint before we ask that saint for intercession? Paul offers no qualification. He lays down the principle: it’s ok to ask other saints for intecession. I see DPMartin adding to the text qualifications to Paul’s example that do not exist.

MarcoPolo

Thanks very much for the opportunity to reply to this.

No your are completely incorrect, any one who can read the text can see plainly that Paul was speaking to those yet in his life time in this flesh. (Though yes that which Paul wrote is of the Spirit of God with Paul, and any ref. To his efforts in the Presence of God to intercede for us or the Church as a whole seeing that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul did and requested while he was yet in this flesh that he testified of while he was yet in this flesh) There is no denying this to be true, unless one takes the unscrupulous used car salesmen’s position of “do you believe me or your lying eyes” which is to say don’t believe what you can plainly see is true, believe what I say about it what you see. Because a lie is not provable, for it is a lie. And he who seeks to lie can’t prove it’s true, he only trys to get some one else to believe it’s true, with out the proof. Whether the liar believes what he is saying or not. There is no proof in the Bible that one should seek communication with those who have passed on. And what would be the piont of even seeking to attend church or mass unless one had desire to communicate with those yet in the flesh that believe. What? You don’t need to communicate to the brethren yet in this flesh because you can communicate to others that have passed on? what? Is those who God has chosen in your life time, not good enough for you? What? God isn’t providing for your Spiritual need, where you are, in the life time you live? Then how is it that God can be with you? And for the record Jesus didn’t pass on, and He revealed that to the brethren and the Apostles that He can be known even after the Cross because He lives today. And since He can be heard, he didn’t pass on. Amen. And He proved it. Again, the proof is in the pudding, in the human existence, that one walks with God. That which is contrary to the Word of God is not of God…

Nobody communicated to Moses after he passed on, but the Lord Jesus Christ communicated to Moses at the transfiguration. Because He, Jesus Christ is the Life the Truth and the Way that was revealed to Moses. And if anybody is an example of a man, as a man, as an intercessor of others for others, before the Lord God, in the Presence of the Lord God, it was Moses. The Lord God even offered eliminating this people and that Moses could have a people unto himself.

And intercessor that walks with God seeks that the people that are there in his life time in this flesh, be unto God in the Name of the Lord and not unto himself. The walk of Paul the walk fo the Apostles the walk of Moses the walk of the Saints who were unto God, through the Holy and Blessed Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

The record shows that the People of God, though yet wondering in the wilderness, experienced and saw. And anything contrary to the experience of that which the People of God experienced, and saw, of God which is written down by the hand of God’s trusted servant Moses, is not of God. Amen. Hence the People of God are to be unto God not the servants of God, for that would dishonor the servant’s service unto God in the interest of the People of God, to be unto God. For those who seek that the People of God be unto themselves, in the name of themselves, are not servants of God. Even Paul tells us that he did not build a house unto his own name.

 

[NHInsider]

I wonder why Jesus told the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus if it’s not possible for the living to speak with the dead?

I wonder what/who it was that King Saul spoke with in the rooms of the Witch of Endor, if it wasn’t Samuel?

You say

There is no proof in the Bible that one should seek communication with those who have passed on.

Where then is the evidence that death cuts us off from the Body? Your arguments are all based on what seems inappropriate to you, not on what Scripture says.

But then you state

And for the record Jesus didn’t pass on, and He revealed that to the brethren and the Apostles that He can be known even after the Cross because He lives today. And since He can be heard, he didn’t pass on.

What?? Are you asserting that Jesus didn’t actually die? There’s a seriously heretical position.

Or are you asserting that those who die in the Lord are not raised?

Jesus answered this one directly, when He said to the Sadducees “God told Moses He isf the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but God is the God of the living, not the dead.”

 

[DPMartin]

NHInsider

Thanks for the excellent reply

I wonder why Jesus told the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus if it’s not possible for the living to speak with the dead?

If you notice his request was denied, but the main reason is which also supports that it is not God’s intention that intercession be other than what is given in human existence:

Luke:16:
29: Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30: And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31: And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Of which the Israelites did not communicate with after they, Moses and the Prophets, passed on. Just what would one think the exercise of intercession is? Isn’t Jesus THE intercessor for us before the Father? So one couldn’t intercede unless it be in the Word of God in the Presence of God. Hence Moses and the Prophets. For the Word of the Lord and the Presence of the Lord, was with them. In which these men walked, also the Apostles.

I wonder what/who it was that King Saul spoke with in the rooms of the Witch of Endor, if it wasn’t Samuel?

Thanks for these examples. It has been said by some that finding good council can be confusing, but an example is clear.

1Sam:28:
15: And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, **and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, **neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16: Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

One must note that this man Saul, has become enmity with the Lord God hence the Lord God does not hear him, as testified in the Scriptures, and the Lord God doesn’t speak to him as testified in Scriptures. Therefore Saul sot other avenues, but that is because he is cut off from the Lord God, by the Lord God. And his communication with Samuel confirmed this status and did not change Saul’s status with God, did it?

Considering that these two examples are of those who seek to, and desire of, and do such are:

1. In the fire of torment, and separation from God’s People.
2. The LORD is departed from them, and is become their enemy.

Considering that the Scriptures are true and the Catholic Church agrees that the Scriptures are sacred and true, and of God. Need I say more?

You say Where then is the evidence that death cuts us off from the Body? Your arguments are all based on what seems inappropriate to you, not on what Scripture says.

But then you state

What?? Are you asserting that Jesus didn’t actually die? There’s a seriously heretical position.

Or are you asserting that those who die in the Lord are not raised?

Jesus answered this one directly, when He said to the Sadducees “God told Moses He isf the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but God is the God of the living, not the dead.”

Good question.

The very first man to experience death is Abel, and the Lord God heard his blood cry out to Him from the ground. And this is so because the Lord God said He heard. Therefore if God doesn’t hear you, you are not alive. As the Lord God has said, the blood is the life of the body. And if you notice, this is established from the get go. Before mankind populates the surface of the earth. Hence the focus if you will on the lamb, to be heard by God, because what is known is, God had respect for the one who offered the lamb and the offering of the lamb, and heard the one who offered the lamb, while he was yet not in the body. Therefore the fulfillment in Jesus Christ that God the Father hears use through His offering of the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world that would separate us from God that He would not hear us, our cry unto Him. Hence The Great Glory of the Cross.

So yes the body of the Son of man died on the Cross, many wittiness’ thereof, right? And the blood of that body was poured out into the ground, right?

Hence that body that died on the Cross was risen from the dead by the Power of the Presence of God. Does this mean that the Word of God from God of God was dead? Seeing that the Word of God in the Presence of God is Life, Life everlasting. How can that which was in the beginning that has no end, end? Do we not yet understand, that it is the Word of God in the Presence of God, that is Life.

The Gospel according to John (The Beloved) :1:
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

---

Mt:4:4: But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And Jesus proved it, and fulfilled it, in human existance, for He is the Word of God revealed in the Son of man.

 

[DPMartin]

This is completely off-topic, but is there a good reason you list your religious affiliation as Catholic when you seem pretty opposed to Catholic teaching?

Sorry, but this is just incorrect.

Ordinary people did not and could not go before the Tabernacle, nor could they approach the Presence. Moses represented the Israelites before the Lord. The Levites were chosen by God to approach Him and offer sacrifice on behalf of the people. No one could enter the Holy of Holies except the High Priest, once a year. The priest who offered the morning and evening incense offering was chosen by lot, once in a life-time except under the most unusual of circumstances - they represented the entire nation before the Lord. In fact, one of the very radical things about Jesus’ message was the notion that each and every one of us is invited into an intimate relationship with the Lord.

And King Saul had already lost God’s favor before he paid a witch to conjure up Samuel, but Samuel really showed up and interacted with him - much to the shock of the witch!

Only God answers prayer. No one is suggesting otherwise. Our prayer to saints requests their intercession. Possibly you oppose Catholic doctrine because you misunderstand it?

NHInsider

Sorry at first I didn’t see your posting, thanks for the reply

I was born and rased a Catholic, and still qualify as “Catholic”. Now in my mid fifties I have found over the years as a Catholic that it is easier to understand and live as a child of God by reading and believing the Scriptures first. Then what ever some one has to say about it, and what it says. And I beg to differ with you on what you consider Catholic teaching my friend, it is the Catholic Church that assembled together what we now know as the Bible. Not getting into who our what ever disputes over the centuries on what should be included, or not included. Still it was the Catholic Church, therefore there is nothing more Catholic then believing the Bible first.

When you think about it, it don’t get no more traditional then that. If you notice if you believe the Bible you just say there it is in black and white so to speak, but anything other then that, there is constant dispute, and strife for the justification for. Even doctrines that are well over 1000 yr’s old. But no honest Christian is going to dispute if the Bible says. Notice that you are going there for proof in your next statement.

What I honestly don’t understand if you require some else to be Scripturally accurate, or what they say or teach isn’t true, then. ??? What is good for the goose, is good for the gander.

On your comment that the ordinary people could not approach is incorrect, though yes they where not to enter the door. (if my memory serves)

Lev:1:
1: And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2: Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3: If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4: And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
5: And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron’s sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
6: And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.

Note that this is instruction that are to “the children of Israel” and also note that the “ordinary” Israelite was instructed to not only bring his offering where? “at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD” (that wouldn’t be some other location would it?) And also was instructed to. “And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. 5: And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD” and notice, after that, the priest takes over.

When reading Leviticus it might be wise to see who the instructions are to, before assuming something. But yes some instruction are to the Children of Israel and some instructions are to the Priests. And at that time without getting into specifics the Levites where the ones to work the Tabernacle and the Priesthood was to be handed down through the sons of Aaron.

I have been responding to the subject of intercession through out, I ask you to read them as a response to you question of the same.

And believing that the Bible is true, and of God, is in nowise against the Catholic Church. Heck it’s in the interest of the Catholic Church, and it’s well being.

 

[EricFilmer]

Hi there, just wondering if there are passages in the Bible that indicate that we should pray to Saints or to the Virgin for that matter. I love doing so, but I’m not sure how I could defend this issue to non-Catholics.

I think it is perfectly fine to give scriptural support for the Catholic doctrine of praying to saints, and others in this thread have provided this. However, when non-Catholics demand concrete scriptural proof for it, then they are trying to drag us onto “the Sola Scriptura playing field.” In other words, they are demanding the validity of a Catholic doctrine to be demonstrated using the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura (i.e., “Bible Alone”).

Regardless of the quality of a biblical argument for prayer to the saints, from a Catholic perspective it is a Doctrine of the Faith. This means God has revealed this doctrine to us as part of his revelation (in this case stemming more from Sacred Tradition than Scripture). Simply put, we pray to the saints because God says we can, and it is also encouraged as an aspect of Christian love and fellowship.

I would also like to point out that from a historical perspective, there is archeological proof that the ancient Christians prayed to saints. Christians under pagan Roman rule who suffered martyrdom rather than renounce their faith were believed to enter directly into heaven (and this is still believed today). When these martyrs were buried, it was customary to mark their graves with the inscription, “Ora pro nobis” which means, “Pray for us.” Many of those inscriptions are still there today.

These inscriptions were not an invitation for visitors to the cemetery to pray for the martyrs, because the martyrs were believed to already be in heaven (and therefore not in need of prayers on their behalf). Rather, the inscriptions were prayers to the martyrs to pray for people on earth.

It is also worth noting that Revelation clearly shows that martyred saints are in heaven, that they are aware of what goes on earth, and that they ask God to intervene in the lives of people on earth:

"I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, ‘How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?’" (Revelation 6:9-10)

It seems to me if saints in heaven can ask God to inflict justice on bad people on earth, they can likewise ask God to send blessings upon good people on earth. To suggest that we are not permitted to ask them to pray for us means that what is a common aspect of Christian practice on earth (asking people in our communities to pray for us) does not extend to the community of heaven.

It also suggests that while the members of Church on earth can have fellowship with one another and while the members of the Church in heaven can have fellowship with one another, the Church on earth is not supposed to have fellowship with the Church in heaven. So what prevents we on earth from having fellowship with the saints in heaven? Is it death? But if all Christians (regardless of location) are one in the body of Christ, and Christ is the Lord of Life, how can death act as such a barrier?

 

[Cat_Herder]

A few pages back I noted a simple solution

1. God uses angels as messengers and mediators
2. Saints are equal to angels
3. Thus God uses saints as messengers and mediators

 

[DPMartin]

Just to be clear, It’s not my intention to be against, but:

Religion has never healed a broken heart, given peace to the worried mind, nor life to the soul, The Word of God has done all of these a more, by His Gracious and Holy Presence in Mercy and Truth. And it has been the history of God with mankind that this is done with people who are walking with God, as Jesus has demonstrated to us. Hence people do.

 

[Croc]

Praying to anything else apart from God makes that object a god. God is the only deity that is all knowing, ever present, all able, eternal, immortal etc. When another object comes between the omnipresent God, it takes up the place of God which is actually idolatry.

The devils also wishes to be worshiped, and so he counterfeits as the responding god.
In witchcraft, demons/evil spirits attach themselves to charms thereby making them appear to function. When charms are confronted with the name of Jesus, they cease to function.

In 1Sam:28:7: Saul said unto his servants, “Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her”
verse 11: Then said the woman, "Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he (Saul) said, Bring me up Samuel.
Verse 12: And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

What the medium saw was different from the spirits she was used to and automatically she discovered that Saul the King was the one she was dealing with.
Saul was judged for consulting the spirits of the dead.

 

[PRmerger]

Praying to anything else apart from God makes that object a god.

That’s only because you have no other prayer except “worship”.

Catholics do have other prayers: intercessory, to name one.

And, as such, when we ask others to pray for us we do not make them gods.

Otherwise, prayer chains in all Protestant churches would need to be removed.