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Phil467
Guest
i understand what the tract is saying and I understand the doctrine…but where is the Scriptural support for it??
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K
Kristina_P
Guest
If you understand the doctrine, then why did you misrepresent it in your above post? Also, if you’re familiar with the doctrine, then you understand that any Scriptural support it has is implicit, not explicit. It is supported by the Tradition of the Church and by theological reason, much like the doctrine of the Trinity. You can find such support in the “Mary and the Saints” section of Catholic Answers, so I really don’t feel the need to write a long post here.
S
Superstar905
Guest
hey, read post #15, i asked you some questions myself.
S
sandusky
Guest
Aaron I.:
Asking someone to pray is considered intercessory prayer, which is commanded in the scripture; believers are to pray for one another.
When the disciples asked Jesus to show them how to pray, He said, in this way: Our Father…
As we are told to imitate Christ, I think we do well to pray for to the Father and to Him only.
Dead people are not mediators, they are dead; communication with the dead is forbidden in the O.T., and God has not relaxed that restriction.
Actually it is not. There is only one mediator, according to scripture, between God and man, and that is Christ.
Asking someone to pray is considered intercessory prayer, which is commanded in the scripture; believers are to pray for one another.
When the disciples asked Jesus to show them how to pray, He said, in this way: Our Father…
As we are told to imitate Christ, I think we do well to pray for to the Father and to Him only.
Dead people are not mediators, they are dead; communication with the dead is forbidden in the O.T., and God has not relaxed that restriction.
J
johnshelby
Guest
you are familiar with the wedding feast at Cana…
where Mary, interceded with Jesus, to provide wine for the
wedding guests… and even tho He said, “it is not yet my
time”… He still did as His mother wished…
we believe, He still does…
M
MariaG
Guest
Asking Mary to pray for us is intercessory prayer also.
But more importantly, I am sorry that you think those who have died believing in Christ are dead!
My God is the God of the living. Those who die in Christ are not dead in Him, but Alive in Him.
There is much Scripture that talks of those who die in Him do not really die, but are alive in Him. I am surprised that as a christian you were not aware that if we die believing in Him, we have eternal life, not eternal death.
I’ll look for that Scripture for you though. You should not as a Christian continue to think that those who die believing in Him are dead, but rather Alive in Him.
God Bless,
Maria
J
johnshelby
Guest
and when a Catholic ‘prays’ to Mary, that’s all we are doing,
asking Mary to pray to Christ for us… the exactly same thing
you, or we do, when we ask someone here to pray for us…
"Pray for us to the Lord our God… " Jesus is the sole mediator
between man and the Father… Mary’s going to Jesus with our
prayer, in no way diminishes Jesus’ sole mediation with the
Father…
J
johnshelby
Guest
“.also, if Mary was without sin, then why did she need a saviour??”:
Mary was human, a creature just as i am, you are…
Mary was born without sin, but to be born that way, she required
‘saving’, just as we do, by the Lord… one… example… i’ve read is like this…
when we are born, it’s like we fall into a pit of mud, which is
original sin… we need Jesus to save us from this pit and cleanse
us of the mud… in the case of Mary, He simply stopped her from falling into the pit before her birth… so as to prepare an ‘acceptable’ ark for the New Covenant…
Mary was full of grace… we believe this grace enabled her to
continue to remain sinless… doesn’t make her perfect… but
simply another manifestation of God’s power…
Mary was human, a creature just as i am, you are…
Mary was born without sin, but to be born that way, she required
‘saving’, just as we do, by the Lord… one… example… i’ve read is like this…
when we are born, it’s like we fall into a pit of mud, which is
original sin… we need Jesus to save us from this pit and cleanse
us of the mud… in the case of Mary, He simply stopped her from falling into the pit before her birth… so as to prepare an ‘acceptable’ ark for the New Covenant…
Mary was full of grace… we believe this grace enabled her to
continue to remain sinless… doesn’t make her perfect… but
simply another manifestation of God’s power…
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Let the Dead be Dead.
God Bless
K
Kristina_P
Guest
Glad you pointed this out. Also, there’s a pretty big difference between holding a seance and asking a saint to pray for/with you.
We pray to Jesus. Jesus died. Why is that not communicating with the dead? Because we believed Jesus is no longer dead. He extended the promise of resurrection to His followers, and I believe in His promises. Therefore, I will not “let the dead be dead” as Spokenword puts it, because those who die in Christ are not dead. They have been resurrected by the power of God’s grace.
It’s fine if you believe we shouldn’t pray to saints. Many people believe that the saints in heaven cannot hear us, but rather live in a state of perpetual bliss unconcerned with the affairs of those on earth. I believe this to be unbiblical, but it’s at least admitting that Jesus keeps his promises. But don’t try to make me believe that the saints are dead.
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sandusky
Guest
Amen.Let the Dead be Dead.
S
sandusky
Guest
Kristina P.:
When did that resurrection occur?
K
Kristina_P
Guest
Perhaps resurrection was the wrong term to use. Their bodily death was but a release of their very-much-alive spirit into Heaven (or Purgatory, but we don’t ask for intercession from souls in Purgatory). They have not been bodily resurrected, but I don’t believe their spirit is in any way dead. Their bodies sleep, but their spirits are very much alive. Unlike the concept of death in the Old Testament, they are not in Sheol, the realm of the dead. It is forbidden to speak with spirits in the realm of the dead. They are in Heaven, which is by nature the realm of the living.
Can someone older in the faith help me with my wording of this? It seems that sandusky is still trying to argue that those who die in Christ are dead, which is not a Biblical argument.
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Pax
Guest
Greetings Sandusky,
The statement about Jesus as the “one mediator” needs to be understood properly and should not be used as an argument against intercessory prayer. Clearly, intercessory prayer by you or any other Christian is a form of mediation. This kind of mediation is subordinate to that of Jesus as the “one mediator” and does not compete with the mediation of Jesus. If intercessory prayer violated or intruded upon the biblical teaching on Jesus as the “one mediator”, then scripture would not tell us to engage in intercessory prayer.
Jesus as the “one mediator” is to be understood in a sense that fully and completely exceeds the biblical instruction of intercessory prayer. Only Jesus could restore the broken relationship between God and man. Only the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus provides atonement, expiation, and redemption for mankind. No intercessory prayer provides this mediation, and that is why Jesus is the one mediator and that is why there is no conflict between his mediation and that of intercessory prayer.
Scripture often refers to “co-workers” with Jesus. The following verses are examples:
Rom 16: 99
Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys.
1 Cor 3:9
For we are laborers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, [ye are] God’s building.
2 Cor 6:1
As we work together with him, we urge you also not to accept the grace of God in vain.
3 Jn 1:8
Therefore we ought to support such people, so that we may become co-workers with the truth.
This aspect of being co-workers with the Lord is also a form of mediation. This mediation in no way detracts from the “one mediation” of Jesus. If anything, all of this subordinate mediation gives glory to God as a result of his power and grace, and it all flows from the complete work of Christ on the cross.
1 Tim 2:1-3 says, “FIRST OF all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,” This passage does not limit requests for intercessions to our earthly brothers and sisters only, nor does any other passage in scripture. Scripture says that the prayer of a just man availeth much[James 5:16], and in Hebrews 12:22-23 we find a powerful passage that says that we Christians “…have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”
Now think about this. As brothers and sisters in Christ we are a church. As brothers and sisters in Christ we are part of the entire body of Christ which includes the assembly of the first-born that are enrolled in heaven, and the spirits of just men made perfect. Paul also tells us in Romans 8:38-39 that not even death can separate us from the love of Christ. We and the saints in heaven are part of his mystical body. Intercession by the saints on earth and intercession by the saints in heaven differ only in quality. The prayers of a just man availeth much. How much more power will the prayers and petitions of the spirits of just men made perfect have in their effect. Surely, their prayers will also availeth much.
The statement about Jesus as the “one mediator” needs to be understood properly and should not be used as an argument against intercessory prayer. Clearly, intercessory prayer by you or any other Christian is a form of mediation. This kind of mediation is subordinate to that of Jesus as the “one mediator” and does not compete with the mediation of Jesus. If intercessory prayer violated or intruded upon the biblical teaching on Jesus as the “one mediator”, then scripture would not tell us to engage in intercessory prayer.
Jesus as the “one mediator” is to be understood in a sense that fully and completely exceeds the biblical instruction of intercessory prayer. Only Jesus could restore the broken relationship between God and man. Only the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus provides atonement, expiation, and redemption for mankind. No intercessory prayer provides this mediation, and that is why Jesus is the one mediator and that is why there is no conflict between his mediation and that of intercessory prayer.
Scripture often refers to “co-workers” with Jesus. The following verses are examples:
Rom 16: 99
Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys.
1 Cor 3:9
For we are laborers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, [ye are] God’s building.
2 Cor 6:1
As we work together with him, we urge you also not to accept the grace of God in vain.
3 Jn 1:8
Therefore we ought to support such people, so that we may become co-workers with the truth.
This aspect of being co-workers with the Lord is also a form of mediation. This mediation in no way detracts from the “one mediation” of Jesus. If anything, all of this subordinate mediation gives glory to God as a result of his power and grace, and it all flows from the complete work of Christ on the cross.
1 Tim 2:1-3 says, “FIRST OF all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,” This passage does not limit requests for intercessions to our earthly brothers and sisters only, nor does any other passage in scripture. Scripture says that the prayer of a just man availeth much[James 5:16], and in Hebrews 12:22-23 we find a powerful passage that says that we Christians “…have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”
Now think about this. As brothers and sisters in Christ we are a church. As brothers and sisters in Christ we are part of the entire body of Christ which includes the assembly of the first-born that are enrolled in heaven, and the spirits of just men made perfect. Paul also tells us in Romans 8:38-39 that not even death can separate us from the love of Christ. We and the saints in heaven are part of his mystical body. Intercession by the saints on earth and intercession by the saints in heaven differ only in quality. The prayers of a just man availeth much. How much more power will the prayers and petitions of the spirits of just men made perfect have in their effect. Surely, their prayers will also availeth much.
P
Pax
Guest
Kristina P
I think the verse you are searching for is Mark 12:26-27 which says, "‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?* He is not God of the dead, but of the living;** you are quite wrong." * The abode of the dead is hell, while heaven is the abode of the living.
It is also worthwhile to note that, at the transfiguration of Jesus, Peter, James and John witnessed Jesus speaking to Moses and Elijah. These are two members of the heavenly assembly that can rightly be described as “the souls of just men made perfect.” These two prophets were very much alive in heaven and were even visible to the apostles who could hear them speaking with Jesus. Naturally, all of this was granted to them by the grace of God, and it speaks volumes to the meaning of the communion of saints.
I think the verse you are searching for is Mark 12:26-27 which says, "‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?* He is not God of the dead, but of the living;** you are quite wrong." * The abode of the dead is hell, while heaven is the abode of the living.
It is also worthwhile to note that, at the transfiguration of Jesus, Peter, James and John witnessed Jesus speaking to Moses and Elijah. These are two members of the heavenly assembly that can rightly be described as “the souls of just men made perfect.” These two prophets were very much alive in heaven and were even visible to the apostles who could hear them speaking with Jesus. Naturally, all of this was granted to them by the grace of God, and it speaks volumes to the meaning of the communion of saints.
K
Kristina_P
Guest
Thank you! I knew I’d heard a support like this back when I posed the question here a few months ago.
P
Pax
Guest
The OT passage that you are referring to is Deuteronomy 18:9-12 which reads as follows:
“When you come into the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord; and because of these abominable practices the Lord your God is driving them out before you.”
This passage has nothing to do with intercessory prayer through the saints in heaven. A plain reading of the text makes it clear that God is forbidding participation in the activities of the occult.
T
Todd_Easton
Guest
Kristina P.:
Do the souls in purgatory pray for us? May we call upon them in our needs? There is no decision of the Church on this subject, nor have the theologians pronounced with definiteness concerning the invocation of the souls in purgatory and their intercession for the living.
As far as I can tell this is still the case today and, while there are no public prayers to the Holy Souls in Purgatory, private prayers to the Holy Souls seem to be permitted. Here’s one such prayer I found online, here:
Prayer to Holy Souls in Purgatory
Oh holy souls in purgatory, you are the certain heirs of heaven. You are most dear to Jesus as the trophies of His Precious Blooed and to Mary, mother of mercy. Obtain for me through your intercession the grace to lead a holy life, to die a happy death, and to attain to the blessedness of eternity in heaven.
Dear suffering souls, who long to be delivered in order to praise and glorify God in heaven, by your unfailing pity help me in the needs which distress me at this time, particularly {mention your petition} so that I may obtain relief and assistance from God.
In gratitude for your intercession I offer to God in your behalf the satisfactory merits of my prayer and work, my joys and sufferings of this day.
The intercession of the Holy Souls in Purgatory on behalf of the living is not without Scriptural support. As mentioned above by JaneFrances, in the story Jesus told of the rich man and poor Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), the deceased rich man from his fiery torment interceded for his living brothers.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, apparently referring to the intercession of Holy Souls in Purgatory for us, says:
Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective. (958)
However, it is unclear to me from this passage whether “their intercession for us” occurs while they are yet in Purgatory or after they, aided by our prayers, etc., have entered Heaven.
According to the online 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia article on Purgatory, Section IV (Invocation of Souls):
Do the souls in purgatory pray for us? May we call upon them in our needs? There is no decision of the Church on this subject, nor have the theologians pronounced with definiteness concerning the invocation of the souls in purgatory and their intercession for the living.
As far as I can tell this is still the case today and, while there are no public prayers to the Holy Souls in Purgatory, private prayers to the Holy Souls seem to be permitted. Here’s one such prayer I found online, here:
Prayer to Holy Souls in Purgatory
Oh holy souls in purgatory, you are the certain heirs of heaven. You are most dear to Jesus as the trophies of His Precious Blooed and to Mary, mother of mercy. Obtain for me through your intercession the grace to lead a holy life, to die a happy death, and to attain to the blessedness of eternity in heaven.
Dear suffering souls, who long to be delivered in order to praise and glorify God in heaven, by your unfailing pity help me in the needs which distress me at this time, particularly {mention your petition} so that I may obtain relief and assistance from God.
In gratitude for your intercession I offer to God in your behalf the satisfactory merits of my prayer and work, my joys and sufferings of this day.
The intercession of the Holy Souls in Purgatory on behalf of the living is not without Scriptural support. As mentioned above by JaneFrances, in the story Jesus told of the rich man and poor Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), the deceased rich man from his fiery torment interceded for his living brothers.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, apparently referring to the intercession of Holy Souls in Purgatory for us, says:
Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective. (958)
However, it is unclear to me from this passage whether “their intercession for us” occurs while they are yet in Purgatory or after they, aided by our prayers, etc., have entered Heaven.
J
johnshelby
Guest
Matthew 27: ( KJV )
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
is this the type of resurrection you were asking about??
S
sandusky
Guest
Pax, as always, your posts are thoughtful, as well as well-thought.
As we both agree, intercessory prayer is commanded, and that among the living.
With the exception of those who pray to idols, and for which practice they are condemned, scripture nowhere gives an example of people praying to anyone but God.
So too, with the Lord; as we are told to imitate Him, I think we should pray to God, and to Him alone.
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