Praying to saints more than asking intercession?

[internetjoko]

Hello.

I understand the Catholic teaching is that when Catholics pray to saints, they are merely asking for their intercession, just as I would ask a friend to intercede for me. Ok, that is fine with me. How, then am I to understand this common Catholic prayer to St. Joseph and others like it that do not simply ask for intercession?

“Protect the Holy Father, our sovereign pontiff, and all bishops and priests united with him. Be the protector of all who labor for souls amid the trials and tribulations of this life, and grant that all peoples of the world may follow Christ and the Church he founded.”

This prayer is doing far more than asking for Joseph’s intercession. I would never ask a friend to “be the protector of all who labor for souls, and grant that all people of the world may follow Christ.” This is a prayer TO Joseph, not asking Joseph to pray for me.

Can anyone make sense of this for me?

 

[bmullins]

Why would you never ask a friend to watch over you or someone else? I’ve even asked my brother to watch over my daughter when I’m not around. Asking them to do something doesn’t mean they have authority of their own. It’s simply asking them to watch over and protect. They protect by going to God in prayer when you or your friend need them.

We believe that prayer is very effective, and prayer through Jesus Christ can do anything. (Ask and you shall receive.) So we believe that if God allows it, a saint or angel can watch over us and protect us, not of their own power, but through God’s grace.

It brings me back to my favorite analogy. The moon. The moon has no light of it’s own. It simply reflects the sunlight. That doesn’t mean that we don’t get to see by the light of the moon. It just means that what we call moonlight, is really a reflection of the son. A saint can only do what God allows them to do. When they do, it is not through their own power, but through the grace that God allows to pass through them. The same as laying on hands. Many protestants believe that laying on hands and anointing with oil can bring about great healing. Now they really do lay on hands. They touch with their own hands and healing does sometimes come about. Now does that healing come from them or from God? The same with Saints. If the prayer is answered, it is not the Saint who has acted solely alone. The Saint has only done what God has approved and allowed.

Another way to consider it. If I go to a person who works for the President and ask them to get me a pass into the white house, and they go to the president and get me that pass… that person did indeed get me the pass…but they had to go through the president to do so. If this prayer is answered it’s like that pass.

 

[Julia_Mae]

It’s a “common Catholic prayer?” Prayers people post on the internet are not exactly statements of theology from the Vatican.

However, Jesus appointed 12 Apostles and imbued them with gifts of the Spirit so that they, too, could heal and do great works. So, what, when they get to Heaven they only get to ask but not act? Why wouldn’t people in Heaven have jobs, be given responsibilities to act? They’re in Heaven, it’s not like they don’t know God’s perfect Will.

We are supposed to spend our lives serving one another, should this suddenly stop when we pass or does it make sense that we get even better at it?

Stop trying to make a case for idolatry and try to understand that they are people, great people, alive and well and still part of the Church, they are the Church Triumphant and they help us out all the time.

Those Apostles didn’t run around finding sick people and run back to Jesus and say, “Cure him, cure her, heal this one, please, Jesus!” They did it. Themselves. And I bet people asked them to.

Saints help us. So what?

 

[internetjoko]

I like the moon analogy.

I guess my issue remains that if Catholics really DO pray to saints expecting that the Saints really will answer their prayers (even if it is through the power of God), Catholic apologists are not being totally honest to say “it is just like asking a friend to pray for you.” Because one is asking for intercession on your behalf, the other is asking that a specific request be answered by a saint. As in, that saint Joseph, because of your prayer, will protect the holy pontiff…

So you DO pray to saints, and it isn’t just asking them to pray for you. Correct?

 

[pablope]

Hello.

I understand the Catholic teaching is that when Catholics pray to saints, they are merely asking for their intercession, just as I would ask a friend to intercede for me. Ok, that is fine with me. How, then am I to understand this common Catholic prayer to St. Joseph and others like it that do not simply ask for intercession?

“Protect the Holy Father, our sovereign pontiff, and all bishops and priests united with him. Be the protector of all who labor for souls amid the trials and tribulations of this life, and grant that all peoples of the world may follow Christ and the Church he founded.”

This prayer is doing far more than asking for Joseph’s intercession. I would never ask a friend to “be the protector of all who labor for souls, and grant that all people of the world may follow Christ.” This is a prayer TO Joseph, not asking Joseph to pray for me.

Can anyone make sense of this for me?

Well, keep in mind…the language is “Catholic” speak…a Catholic would already know what is meant, internally. And that is what causes some misconception among our protestant brethen.

"Protect the Holy Father, our sovereign pontiff, and all bishops and priests united with him.

As we pray, we are also asking St. Joseph to also pray with us to protect the HF, all bishops and priests, etc. In essence we are asking to join our prayers with St. Joseph in asking for intercession.

As is stated in James, the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

Be the protector of all who labor for souls amid the trials and tribulations of this life, "

We are also praying/asking that St. Joseph also intercede and pray for those who labor for souls, and that they be given strength in their trials and tribulations in life…

and grant that all peoples of the world may follow Christ and the Church he founded.

“And grant”…is an old prayer phrase…in this part, we are asking that graces be granted or given to all that they may know and follow Christ. So, do you see anything wrong in asking for this?

Hope this helps…

 

[bmullins]

It’s a “common Catholic prayer?” Prayers people post on the internet are not exactly statements of theology from the Vatican.

I thought the same thing, as I’ve never seen this prayer. I found it on a site that claims to have the Nihil Obstat.

As to your statement(internetjoko) that we do pray to saints and ask them for more than prayer, I guess some Catholics do. I am sure there are many out there. I don’t see this as asking a saint to do anything more than pray (ask) God to do things. You see it as someone running around back and forth and doing things all on their own. I see it as someone in heaven being asked to “keep an eye out” and to pray for us when we most need them. A prayer warrior, a protector.

I think your splitting straws, trying to find something wrong and if you look hard enough through eisegesis of the content available, you can find whatever you want to find.

 

[internetjoko]

It’s a “common Catholic prayer?” Prayers people post on the internet are not exactly statements of theology from the Vatican.

However, Jesus appointed 12 Apostles and imbued them with gifts of the Spirit so that they, too, could heal and do great works. So, what, when they get to Heaven they only get to ask but not act? Why wouldn’t people in Heaven have jobs, be given responsibilities to act? They’re in Heaven, it’s not like they don’t know God’s perfect Will.

We are supposed to spend our lives serving one another, should this suddenly stop when we pass or does it make sense that we get even better at it?

Stop trying to make a case for idolatry and try to understand that they are people, great people, alive and well and still part of the Church, they are the Church Triumphant and they help us out all the time.

Those Apostles didn’t run around finding sick people and run back to Jesus and say, “Cure him, cure her, heal this one, please, Jesus!” They did it. Themselves. And I bet people asked them to.

Saints help us. So what?

I copy and pasted the prayer from Catholic Answers, listed under 'Common Catholic prayers" catholic.com/tracts/common-catholic-prayers

I haven’t made a case for idolatry, at all. I am genuinely trying to understand the Catholic perspective, not on a witch hunt. Your defensiveness isn’t inviting.

 

[pablope]

I like the moon analogy.

I guess my issue remains that if Catholics really DO pray to saints expecting that the Saints really will answer their prayers (even if it is through the power of God), Catholic apologists are not being totally honest to say “it is just like asking a friend to pray for you.” Because one is asking for intercession on your behalf, the other is asking that a specific request be answered by a saint. As in, that saint Joseph, because of your prayer, will protect the holy pontiff…

So you DO pray to saints, and it isn’t just asking them to pray for you. Correct?

One thing to keep in mind…prayer to a Catholic does not mean worship. Praying is asking, pleading, for intercession…our worship is during the Mass, which you should find time to attend one, if you have not.

With this said, there are different kinds of prayers. There are prayers of thanks, prayers for healing of someone…prayers for a petition…let us say, in finding a job, in healing of an illness…etc.

We do pray them…the difference is in the kind of prayer. And when we pray…we know it is for them to pray with us to bring it to God’s attention…and that God grant our prayers as per His Divine will and providence.

 

[internetjoko]

Well, keep in mind…the language is “Catholic” speak…a Catholic would already know what is meant, internally. And that is what causes some misconception among our protestant brethen.

"Protect the Holy Father, our sovereign pontiff, and all bishops and priests united with him.

As we pray, we are also asking St. Joseph to also pray with us to protect the HF, all bishops and priests, etc. In essence we are asking to join our prayers with St. Joseph in asking for intercession.

As is stated in Jame, the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

Be the protector of all who labor for souls amid the trials and tribulations of this life, "

We are also praying/asking that St. Joseph intercede and pray for those who labor for souls, and that they be given strength in their trials and tribulations in life…

and grant that all peoples of the world may follow Christ and the Church he founded.

“And grant”…is an old prayer phrase…in this part, we are asking that graces be granted or given to all that they may know and follow Christ. So, do you see anything wrong in asking for this?

Hope this helps…

It does a bit. I guess I am just confused. The wording sounds like you are asking St. Joseph to DO something in and of his own accord. Which, is fine, if that is what you are doing, but doesn’t seem to be what Catholic apologists explain. But are you telling me you are not asking St. Joseph to DO anything, you are just asking him to pray this alongside of you? If yes, it just sounds misleading.

In my admittedly very protestant thinking, I see a large difference between saying to my friend Frank, “Frank, please pray that God will grant me and all Christians everywhere peace…” and saying “Frank, grant me and all christians everywhere peace.”

Am I making false distinctions?

 

[bmullins]

Here is another example that just occurred to me, one that involves saints right here in the world still. A while back my wife lost her job. We were out of money. After paying our rent, we literally had no money left. She needed to get to her sisters house in order to watch the kids for her, and we had no gas in the car. Now we prayed to God, and we asked God to help. That’s normal right? Catholics do indeed believe we should go to God with our concerns.

We also went to our dear friend, and we asked her to pray for us. We told her what was going on, and we asked her to pray for us and to keep an eye out for a job for my wife. Now this person went and did as we asked. She being a member of the body of Christ helped us. She looked over us, watched out for us, and prayed for us. She also felt that God wanted her to fill our car up for us.

Now my friend who is in the body of Christ, was able to help. She found job listings and brought them to us. She gave us gas to get to and from where we needed to be. And she prayed for us. Now all these gifts came from my friend, but ultimately they came from God. My friend did what God told her to do, and we were blessed by it.

We Catholics believe that those who die are not removed from the body of Christ. They are still very much members of the same body. They just aren’t here on earth anymore. Just like my friend here on earth, St. Joseph can help out. He can watch out for me, and pray for me. Anything I receive from that intercession is from God! That doesn’t mean that St. Joseph didn’t watch over me and help me, but that he did so through God’s guidance and grace.

 

[internetjoko]

Here is another example that just occurred to me, one that involves saints right here in the world still. A while back my wife lost her job. We were out of money. After paying our rent, we literally had no money left. She needed to get to her sisters house in order to watch the kids for her, and we had no gas in the car. Now we prayed to God, and we asked God to help. That’s normal right? Catholics do indeed believe we should go to God with our concerns.

We also went to our dear friend, and we asked her to pray for us. We told her what was going on, and we asked her to pray for us and to keep an eye out for a job for my wife. Now this person went and did as we asked. She being a member of the body of Christ helped us. She looked over us, watched out for us, and prayed for us. She also felt that God wanted her to fill our car up for us.

Now my friend who is in the body of Christ, was able to help. She found job listings and brought them to us. She gave us gas to get to and from where we needed to be. And she prayed for us. Now all these gifts came from my friend, but ultimately they came from God. My friend did what God told her to do, and we were blessed by it.

We Catholics believe that those who die are not removed from the body of Christ. They are still very much members of the same body. They just aren’t here on earth anymore. Just like my friend here on earth, St. Joseph can help out. He can watch out for me, and pray for me. Anything I receive from that intercession is from God! That doesn’t mean that St. Joseph didn’t watch over me and help me, but that he did so through God’s guidance and grace.

Oooh, good one. I like it. Thanks for sharing.

 

[pablope]

It does a bit. I guess I am just confused. The wording sounds like you are asking St. Joseph to DO something in and of his own accord.

In essence, yes…that we are asking St. Joseph to also pray for…(whoever you want to add here)

Which, is fine, if that is what you are doing, but doesn’t seem to be what Catholic apologists explain.

 

[internetjoko]

Hmmm, yes I think you may be…but this is understandable.

Let me make an example…"“Frank, grant me and all christians everywhere peace.”…let us make this this way…St. Joseph, grant me and all christians everywhere peace…is a shortened version…as I said previously, this is catholic speak…but if the prayer said what is in the heart…it would be like this…and longer…St. Joseph, please pray to God fervently, with all your heart and mind, and please bring this to God’s attention…that God…grant me and all christians…

Do you see the difference? At first glance, you think it is St. Joseph that is doing the granting…when it is not.

Ok, but don’t you see how that language is misleading? How is the common man supposed to understand that when you say, “St. Joseph, grant that… (insert anything here)…” He is really saying “St. Joseph, pray with me that God will grant that… (insert anything).” Why not just use clear communication?

 

[Newsy]

As a former protestant and former anti-Catholic, I would give you this insight. There is a huge language barrier between Catholics and Protestants.

I also offer a story. My wife and I, after joining the Catholic Church, started a Bible Study. We were given advice to put together a prayer team, to offer prayer support for us and the study. I went to a friend and said, “we need some spiritual protection for this Bible study, could you help us out?”. She and I never said the words prayer support, but we both understood it to be the “protection”. I never thought she was battling Satan and his minions in hand to hand combat, I knew she was praying for us.

As for this prayer you quoted, I interpreted it as asking for prayers. Why? Because St. Joseph isn’t magic. He can only do things with God’s help, same as all of us. The prayer asked him for protection, just as I asked my friend for protection. I can see where the idea of idolatry comes from, but it is unfounded. Are there Catholics somewhere, who take intercession from Saints to an unhealthy place? Maybe, I don’t know. It is not a witch hunt I want to go on. That being said, there are churches that treat Calvin or Luther as the fourth person of the Trinity. I have a friend that treats his pastor like he is Jesus’ twin, but I am willing to accept that I may not be seeing an accurate picture. I will never know all the facts, God already does.

Intercession of saints is practiced in the Catholic Church, but no one is forced to do it. I know a Catholic that took 40 years to say a “Hail Mary”. It is understood and accepted, but never forced on anyone.

 

[Anthony_V]

It does a bit. I guess I am just confused. The wording sounds like you are asking St. Joseph to DO something in and of his own accord. Which, is fine, if that is what you are doing, but doesn’t seem to be what Catholic apologists explain. But are you telling me you are not asking St. Joseph to DO anything, you are just asking him to pray this alongside of you? If yes, it just sounds misleading.

In my admittedly very protestant thinking, I see a large difference between saying to my friend Frank, “Frank, please pray that God will grant me and all Christians everywhere peace…” and saying “Frank, grant me and all christians everywhere peace.”

Am I making false distinctions?

No. Rather, you are making a very intelligent distinction. Indeed, there is a hierarchy of prayer intentions. Praying in a group as an intercessory is powerful (Matthew 18:20) because Christ becomes spiritually present with them.

Now turn to Revelation 8:4-5. This grand notion that God would allow those perfect and holy saints, who are in his physical, spiritual, and mystical presence, to intercede for us on earth is humiliating to the entire human race. Consider 1 John 3:22. The prayers of the saints, because they are in his presence, becomes similar to the Holy Spirit coming down from heaven to earth in flames.

Fitting.

 

[bmullins]

Ok, but don’t you see how that language is misleading? How is the common man supposed to understand that when you say, “St. Joseph, grant that… (insert anything here)…” He is really saying “St. Joseph, pray with me that God will grant that… (insert anything).” Why not just use clear communication?

I dunno the answer. To Catholics it seems clear enough? The Catholic tends to look at it from the point of view of their faith though. I don’t know when this prayer was written. Or who wrote it. That could shed some light on the exact grammar. It would be quite a daunting task to rewrite every prayer to make sure it was clear and concise, and there are much more important things we need to address first.

 

[Anthony_V]

I dunno the answer. To Catholics it seems clear enough? The Catholic tends to look at it from the point of view of their faith though. I don’t know when this prayer was written. Or who wrote it. That could shed some light on the exact grammar. It would be quite a daunting task to rewrite every prayer to make sure it was clear and concise, and there are much more important things we need to address first.

This is more a game of semantics and rhetoric than substance.
The protestant scope is quite different than a Catholic scope, for sure, but we must remember than even orthodox Catholic scopes can change due to ecclesialogical structure. e.g. Dominican and Jesuits, Romans and Byzantines, etc.
He’s trying to grasp how they can mean the same thing, even though they are expressed in different ways.

 

[regression]

I always thought of this analogy (similar to what bmullins posted earlier):

Let’s say I have a friend Jim who is out of work. I cannot hire people at my job, so I go to my boss, give him Jim’s resume and say, “you really should hire Jim, he is a great working and really smart”. Then my boss hires Jim.

Later on Jim might say, regression got me this great job and I am so thankful. Well, what does he mean by “got me this great job”? Technically I don’t have authority to hire Jim, but my boss does. My boss actually gave Jim a job. So it kind of depends on how you view “got me” in this case.

Hopefully that helps and if someone wants to shoot holes in my analogy, please do and let me know if I am not viewing this correctly!

And internetjoko, welcome to the forums.

 

[Ignatius]

Hello.

I understand the Catholic teaching is that when Catholics pray to saints, they are merely asking for their intercession, just as I would ask a friend to intercede for me. Ok, that is fine with me. How, then am I to understand this common Catholic prayer to St. Joseph and others like it that do not simply ask for intercession?

“Protect the Holy Father, our sovereign pontiff, and all bishops and priests united with him. Be the protector of all who labor for souls amid the trials and tribulations of this life, and grant that all peoples of the world may follow Christ and the Church he founded.”

Number one, your “common” prayer is so common that no one I asked about it has ever heard it. Are you making this up?

Even if your not, you have to have some basic understandings or you cannot possibly correctly understand what is going on. One fundamental understanding that must proceed trying to understand what anyone is saying is that the only thing that saints can do is pray for us. You mus start with this knowledge and proceed from there.
For example, If I the widow next door to protect my family when I go away on business, I certainly don’t expect her to come running over if there is a fire, I want her to call the fire department. You have to have these basic understanding as reflexively underlying anything that you think you see or you will fundamentally misunderstand it.

Yours in Christ.

 

[regression]

Number one, your “common” prayer is so common that no one I asked about it has ever heard it. Are you making this up?

No, he is not making this up. In post 7 the OP posted the link where this prayer is listed. It is on this site.