Praying to saints: necromancy?

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A protestant acquaintance asked the question: Isn’t praying to saints who have died the same as necromancy?

I didn’t have an answer for him, so I’m asking fellow Catholics to help me answer this.

Thank you!
 
Necromancy:
  • The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
  • Black magic; sorcery.
  • Magic qualities
Necromancy:

newadvent.org/cathen/10735a.htm

Praying to the saints:

newadvent.org/summa/5072.htm

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s1c2a3.htm

http:/http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm/

In the Communion of Saints
1474
The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God’s grace is not alone. "The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."86
1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things."87 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy."88
1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."89
 
Maybe this article from my blog will help some. Point out also that Necromancy is seeking fortune telling from the dead, while the Intercession of Saints is asking those already in Heaven to intercede for our intentions. The Intercession & Communion of Saints
 
If I might bring out an old chestnut: praying to the saints isn’t praying to the dead but praying to the living.
 
As I told a JW - Mark 12:26-27
…have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."
He gave me a little bit about the need to be tolerant of others beliefs and they have never been back. It’s been ten years or so.
 
May I ask where the Catholic Church gets the idea that is Scriptural to pray to a saint be they living or dead?? This has always puzzled me because the practice is never advocated or even performed in Scripture? How can Catholics think that this is an acceptable form or prayer?
 
A protestant acquaintance asked the question: Isn’t praying to saints who have died the same as necromancy?

I didn’t have an answer for him, so I’m asking fellow Catholics to help me answer this.

Thank you!
nec·ro·man·cy   [nek-ruh-man-see]
noun
  1. a method of divination through alleged communication with the dead; black art.
  2. magic in general, especially that practiced by a witch or sorcerer; sorcery; witchcraft; conjuration.
I don’t think praying to a saint meets this definition, unless you think the communication is two way, and you are using it for divination, in which case it would come closer to meeting the dictionary definition. I certainly would not call praying “Black Art” or “Witchcraft.”
 
May I ask where the Catholic Church gets the idea that is Scriptural to pray to a saint be they living or dead?? This has always puzzled me because the practice is never advocated or even performed in Scripture? How can Catholics think that this is an acceptable form or prayer?
Maybe this article from my blog will help some. Point out also that Necromancy is seeking fortune telling from the dead, while the Intercession of Saints is asking those already in Heaven to intercede for our intentions. The Intercession & Communion of Saints
Read my article. It answers this argument.
 
I read the article…

While this does clear up the teaching a bit for me, how does this in any way suggest believers are to do so?

First of all, I would argue that while those who have passed on are aware of us, this doesnt mean that we should pray to them or ask prayers from them. All the passage suggested was that we have a great cloud of witnesses…not that we should petition the witnesses to help…

Why waste prayers petitioning saints, who are powerless apart from Christ, when you could simply pray TO CHRIST?!?! And if you need to ask prayers of another, why not find a LIVING brother or sister and ask them to pray? This would help further the bond of love between you and would also help the two of you grow in spiritual labor?
 
Can you please define praying to the saints for me from a Catholic perspective?
 
Can you please define praying to the saints for me from a Catholic perspective?
From my perspective;
Catholicism does not make a distinction, essentially, between a person living in heaven and a person living on earth. They are both living people. As the ‘church’ is also the place or way that Christians gather together to pray, ‘where two or more of you are gathered etc.’, the prayers of those Christians are also, when necessary, for each other, and for each others intentions, as well as prayers of worship to God.
So gathering together with the Christians on earth, the church, and the saints in heaven together, all pray to God in worship of God and also for the intentions of Christians in need.
A prayer to a saint in heaven is at once asking the living saint in heaven for their prayers and also it is both those people, the person in heaven and the person on earth, praying together to God for whatever intention or help is required; ‘give us this day our daily bread… etc.’ We were instructed by Christ to both pray for what we need and also to pray together and He will be there amongst us.
 
Can you please define praying to the saints for me from a Catholic perspective?
Praying to saints is basically requesting their intercession before God. Just like you might ask your mom, or your spouse, or your friend, to unite their prayers to your intentions, so you’re able to ask those who have predeceased us to unite their prayers with yours. The big difference is that the saints are people who had excellent track records while on earth of having a close relationship with God, and now that they enjoy the beatific vision, are even more closely united to him— moreso than your mom, your spouse, or your friend is likely to be. 😉 Consequently, it’s not much of a stretch to think that between their overwhelming love for God and their experience of being perpetually in God’s presence, that their prayers are consequently more likely to be effective than those of any of the aforementioned people, and consequently, are marvelous friends to have on your side. 🙂

As was mentioned, death is merely a transition into another state of being, but it doesn’t free us from our obligations to each other-- if anything, it allows us to live more fully, in a spiritual sense, because we’re no longer distracted by the burdens of living life on earth, and can wholly focus on what matters most. God’s the God of the living, not of the dead. We’re all alive in Christ, and united as his Church. We keep each other in our prayers, as one big family.
 
That is very interesting. Most people who oppose the idea of praying to the saints think you guys have a ton of tiny “gods” and “goddesses” you worship! 🙂

That is a very unique perspective and, while I can see how it could potentially be true, I ask how the Catholic church can make that into a teaching if God, if Christ, if the apostles, and every other member of the early Church never practiced this sort of petition?
 
There’s a good write-up about the development of the dogma here, as well as historical objections to it.

It wraps up with an interesting paragraph:
The cause of the perversion by Protestants of the traditional concept of communion of saints is not to be found in the alleged lack of Scriptural and early Christian evidence in favour of that concept; well-informed Protestant writers have long since ceased to press that argument. Nor is there any force in the oft-repeated argument that the Catholic dogma detracts from Christ’s mediatorship, for it is plain, as St. Thomas had already shown (Suppl., 72:2, ad 1), that the ministerial mediatorship of the saints does not detract from, but only enhances, the magisterial mediatorship of Christ. Some writers have traced that perversion to the Protestant concept of the Church as an aggregation of souls and a multitude of units bound together by a community of faith and pursuit and by the ties of Christian sympathy, but in no way organized or interdependent as members of the same body. This explanation is defective because the Protestant concept of the Church is a fact parallel to, but in no way causative of, their view of the communion of saints. The true cause must be found elsewhere. As early as 1519, Luther, the better to defend his condemned theses on the papacy, used the clause of the Creed to show that the communion of saints, and not the papacy, was the Church: “non ut aligui somniant, credo ecclesiam esse praelatum . . . sed . . . communionem sanctorum”. This was simply playing on the words of the Symbol. At that time Luther still held the traditional communion of saints, little dreaming that he would one day give it up. But he did give it up when he formulated his theory on justification. The substitution of the Protestant motto, “Christ for all and each one for himself”. In place of the old axiom of Hugh of St. Victor, “Singula sint omnium et omina singulorum” (each for all and all for each–P.L., CLXXV. 416), is a logical outcome of their concept of justification; not an interior renovation of the soul, nor a veritable regeneration from a common Father, the second Adam, nor yet an incorporation with Christ, the head of the mystical body, but an essentially individualistic act of fiducial faith. In such a theology there is obviously no room for that reciprocal action of the saints, that corporate circulation of spiritual blessings through the members of the same family, that domesticity and saintly citizenship which lies at the very core of the Catholic communion of saints. Justification and the communion of saints go hand in hand. The efforts which are being made towards reviving in Protestantism the old and still cherished dogma of the communion of saints must remain futile unless the true doctrine of justification be also restored.
 
I read the article…

While this does clear up the teaching a bit for me, how does this in any way suggest believers are to do so?

First of all, I would argue that while those who have passed on are aware of us, this doesnt mean that we should pray to them or ask prayers from them. All the passage suggested was that we have a great cloud of witnesses…not that we should petition the witnesses to help…

Why waste prayers petitioning saints, who are powerless apart from Christ, when you could simply pray TO CHRIST?!?! And if you need to ask prayers of another, why not find a LIVING brother or sister and ask them to pray? This would help further the bond of love between you and would also help the two of you grow in spiritual labor?
No one is saying that you pray to the saints to the exclusion of those who who are still apart of the church militant. No one is even saying that you have to pray to the saints at all. But if the Scriptures are to be believed, and the prayer of the righteous, “availeth much” who are more righteous, because of Christ, than those believers who have become united with Christ in Heaven?

Also God is the King of the living. Those who are in Heaven a alive in Christ.

God bless
 
That is very interesting. Most people who oppose the idea of praying to the saints think you guys have a ton of tiny “gods” and “goddesses” you worship! 🙂
Some people think the Moon landings were faked. Some people think the Government is watching them through those new wireless power boxes. I don’t put a lot of weight in what some people think.

God bless
 
That is very interesting. Most people who oppose the idea of praying to the saints think you guys have a ton of tiny “gods” and “goddesses” you worship! 🙂
Probably because they aren’t aware that the communion of saints came from Judaism, so they wrongly assume it was some kind of pagan import.
That is a very unique perspective and, while I can see how it could potentially be true, I ask how the Catholic church can make that into a teaching if God, if Christ, if the apostles, and every other member of the early Church never practiced this sort of petition?
I would venture to say that every Protestant engages in prayer to saints at some point, usually during or shortly after a family member’s funeral. The prayer takes the form:

“I am sure that [grandma/grandpa/etc] is in Heaven with Jesus right now and that [grandma/grandpa/etc] is watching over us and protecting us!”

So first of all grandma/grandpa/etc is canonized, that is, declared to be in heaven. Then the intercession of grandma/grandpa/etc is invoked. Certainly the person who just said this does not think that Granny or Pops is a god or goddess who has powers to watch over people, nor does the person have any intent to worship said relative. The purpose of the invocation is simply to request that the departed relative use their newfound closeness to Jesus, the one mediator between God and man, to pray to Him so as to help the survivors. That is no different than using a prayer warrior who is still among the Church Militant on earth, a practice that no one has a problem with.

So if it’s okay to pray to dearly departed mom or grandma, why is Jesus’s Mom any different?
 
Can you please define praying to the saints for me from a Catholic perspective?
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
**Paragraph 5. The Communion of Saints **
946 After confessing “the holy catholic Church,” the Apostles’ Creed adds “the communion of saints.” In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?"479 The communion of saints is the Church.
947 "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others. . . . We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head. . . . Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments."480 "As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund.“481
948 The term “communion of saints” therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta)” and “among holy persons (sancti).”
Sancta sanctis! (“God’s holy gifts for God’s holy people”) is proclaimed by the celebrant in most Eastern liturgies during the elevation of the holy Gifts before the distribution of communion. The faithful (sancti) are fed by Christ’s holy body and blood (sancta) to grow in the communion of the Holy Spirit (koinonia) and to communicate it to the world.
** I. COMMUNION IN SPIRITUAL GOODS **
949 In the primitive community of Jerusalem, the disciples "devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers."482
Communion in the faith . The faith of the faithful is the faith of the Church, received from the apostles. Faith is a treasure of life which is enriched by being shared.
950 Communion of the sacraments. "The fruit of all the sacraments belongs to all the faithful. All the sacraments are sacred links uniting the faithful with one another and binding them to Jesus Christ, and above all Baptism, the gate by which we enter into the Church. The communion of saints must be understood as the communion of the sacraments. . . . The name ‘communion’ can be applied to all of them, for they unite us to God. . . . But this name is better suited to the Eucharist than to any other, because it is primarily the Eucharist that brings this communion about."483
951 Communion of charisms. Within the communion of the Church, the Holy Spirit “distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank” for the building up of the Church.484 Now, "to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."485
952 *“They had everything in common.”*486 "Everything the true Christian has is to be regarded as a good possessed in common with everyone else. All Christians should be ready and eager to come to the help of the needy . . . and of their neighbors in want."487 A Christian is a steward of the Lord’s goods.488
953 Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself."489 "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."490 "Charity does not insist on its own way."491 In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.
** II. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH **
954 The three states of the Church. “When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is”’:492
All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.493
955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."494
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."495
Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.496 I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.497
(Cont’d)
 
957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"498:

We worship Christ as God’s Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord’s disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!499
958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.
959 In the one family of God. "For if we continue to love one another and to join in praising the Most Holy Trinity - all of us who are sons of God and form one family in Christ - we will be faithful to the deepest vocation of the Church."501
Scripture citations rferences:
482 Acts 2:42.
485 1 Cor 12:7.
486 Acts 4:32.
488 Cf. Lk 16:1, 3.
489 Rom 14:7.
490 1 Cor 12:26-27.
491 1 Cor 13:5; cf. 10:24.
492 LG 49; cf. Mt 25:31; 1 Cor 15:26-27; Council of Florence (1439):DS 1305.
493 LG 49; cf. Eph 4:16.
495 LG 49; cf. 1 Tim 2:5.
498 LG 50; cf. Eph 4:1-6.
500 LG 50; cf.* 2 Macc* 12:45.
501 LG 51; cf. Heb 3:6.
First of all, I would argue that while those who have passed on are aware of us, this doesnt mean that we should pray to them or ask prayers from them. All the passage suggested was that we have a great cloud of witnesses…not that we should petition the witnesses to help…
If these faithful departed are aware of us and eagerly witness our race to the Kingdom, then why would that be the case if not to assist us by their intercessions? Being faithful believers, why would they not hear our cries for help along our way and be moved in their perfect charity in Heaven to intercede for us?
Why waste prayers petitioning saints, who are powerless apart from Christ, when you could simply pray TO CHRIST?!?! And if you need to ask prayers of another, why not find a LIVING brother or sister and ask them to pray? This would help further the bond of love between you and would also help the two of you grow in spiritual labor?
Waste? Hardly! Anymore than seeking the intercessions of any fellow believer is a waste. These have won through to their reward and it is by the power of God Himself that they can hear all our prayers and in with us. This is really very sad modern non-Catholic logic. The same kind that would make one call into question the use and intervention of angels. Why would God choose to use them if He can do everything Himself? And when they do intervene, is it not by the will and power of God that they do so? So also is the communion and intercession of saints.

Besides, Catholics have always sought intercessory prayer from each other…as well as the saints in Heaven.
 
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