Praying to saints: necromancy?

[Church_Militant]

That is a very unique perspective and, while I can see how it could potentially be true, I ask how the Catholic church can make that into a teaching if God, if Christ, if the apostles, and every other member of the early Church never practiced this sort of petition?

Please prove your case for this statement from the authentic and verifiable writings of the early church.

Here…I’ll even give you a link to these same early church writings so you can more easily locate them. Catholic First Information Center, Church Fathers Index

Please keep in mind that in the 1st century 2 of the authors, the Bishops Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna were both close friends and disciples of St. John the apostle and evangelist. You may also find it of interest that Polycarp appears to have been infant baptized by St. John himself.

You might also find these articles of interest.
How can the saints in heaven hear us?
The Intercession of the Saints

 

[Linda_Marie]

2 Maccabees / Chapter 15

11 When he had armed each of them, not so much with the safety of shield and spear as with the encouragement of noble words, he cheered them all by relating a dream, a kind of vision, worthy of belief.

12 What he saw was this: Onias, the former high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in appearance, gentle in manners, distinguished in speech, and trained from childhood in every virtuous practice, was praying with outstretched arms for the whole Jewish community.

13 Then in the same way another man appeared, distinguished by his white hair and dignity, and with an air about him of extraordinary, majestic authority.

14 Onias then said of him, “This is God’s prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethren and fervently prays for his people and their holy city.”

Onias and Jeremiah had both died prior to the time of this vision which showed them praying for the Jewish people from heaven.

If we truly believe in eternal life, we should not consider those who have gone before us marked with the sign of faith to be dead. They are not dead, they are alive in Christ, as we hope to be when we pass on. In fact, they are MORE alive than we are, because they share the eternal life of God while we are still on probation so to speak.

 

[Julia_Mae]

May I ask where the Catholic Church gets the idea that is Scriptural to pray to a saint be they living or dead??

Christians for 1500 years all believed the same thing, so first, let’s realize that the real question is: *how did Protestants get so confused about the nature of the afterlife that they abandon their loved ones after death and do not pray for them or speak to them? *

This has always puzzled me because the practice is never advocated or even performed in Scripture?

Of course it occurs in Scripture. Have you never read in the Gospels of Jesus going up on the mountain to pray and there meeting with Moses and Elijah and speaking with them and they giving Him information? Jesus prayed as we do, for guidance and help. In fact, Jesus specifically took witnesses with Him to make sure they saw this, so they would know.

Prayer is often a petition, just as we ask each other to pray for our intentions here, we ask them to pray for us in Heaven.

Catholics end up having to bear the burden that all of you have abdicated by not praying for your families and friends who have passed. How ever did you get to believe the afterlife was so distant when Jesus told you the Kingdom of God is at hand? It makes me quite sad to think of the abandoned souls.

 

[Julia_Mae]

why not find a LIVING brother or sister and ask them to pray?

They are LIVING. They are as alive as they can ever be, more alive than we are. Are you under the impression that they are dead? Christ conquered death, you will never die. You will never stop being, you will rise from your body and step into the arms of Christ.

There is no death. And your spiritual growth will be much assisted by understanding the nature of the True Church, and that we all, the Church Militant and Triumphant, make up the Body of Christ.

We pray together: with one another, for one another, without regard to Time or Space in the Light of Eternity.

 

[Tiber2011]

First of all, I would argue that while those who have passed on are aware of us, this doesnt mean that we should pray to them or ask prayers from them. All the passage suggested was that we have a great cloud of witnesses…not that we should petition the witnesses to help…

Why waste prayers petitioning saints, who are powerless apart from Christ, when you could simply pray TO CHRIST?!?! And if you need to ask prayers of another, why not find a LIVING brother or sister and ask them to pray? This would help further the bond of love between you and would also help the two of you grow in spiritual labor?

The Bible says that the prayers of the Righteous avails much…(James 5:16)…and after reading about the Great Cloud of Witnesses (Hebrews Chapters 11 and 12) and the portion of Revelation where our prayers are being given to Jesus…(Rev. 5:6-9 and Rev. 8:3-4) I am inclined to believe that Saints can indeed hear us and present our prayers to Jesus.

I have come to understand that Saints in Heaven are still part of the Family of God ie: They help us reach the Throne of God as PRAYING people of God, just like our friends here on earth who pray for us when we need prayer.

HOWEVER…There are many Catholics who actually ask Saints to “do” Supernatural things…like find them a house, find their keys…etc. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches…if I’m reading the Catechism correctly. When we take our eyes off of Christ and begin asking other Saints to “DO” things for us, rather than “ASK” things for us…we have then replaced our Jesus with His creations which is not something I’m willing to do.

 

[melekali]

A protestant acquaintance asked the question: Isn’t praying to saints who have died the same as necromancy?

I didn’t have an answer for him, so I’m asking fellow Catholics to help me answer this.

Thank you!

The question I have for your acquaintance is this…Is intercessory prayer interfering with the ministry of Jesus?

It is not necromancy because of the mystical body of Christ. We are all one body, those on earth, those being purged of inordinate self-love and those who are in heaven. If we all make up one body (which we do) and if those who make up the body of Christ are all living (which we are, see Jesus’ own words and St. Paul), then communication between those on earth and the rest of the body of Christ is nothing like necromancy at all. If you read Revelation, you will see those in heaven are intimately involved in our prayers, bring them before God (Revelation (RSV) 5:8c and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints). Further you can see in Hebrews that the saints are now in the present all around us (Hebrews (RSV) 12:1a Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses).

 

[jntsimon]

A protestant acquaintance asked the question: Isn’t praying to saints who have died the same as necromancy?

I didn’t have an answer for him, so I’m asking fellow Catholics to help me answer this.

Thank you!

In Catholic, we are not praying to the saints instead we ask saints to pray for us to the God as we request to the priests to pray for us.
This is really narrated by St. Luke in Holy Bible in wedding of Canna. Read and get the wisdom about the Catholic.

 

[randirhoades]

I read the article…

While this does clear up the teaching a bit for me, how does this in any way suggest believers are to do so?

First of all, I would argue that while those who have passed on are aware of us, this doesnt mean that we should pray to them or ask prayers from them. All the passage suggested was that we have a great cloud of witnesses…not that we should petition the witnesses to help…

Why waste prayers petitioning saints, who are powerless apart from Christ, when you could simply pray TO CHRIST?!?! And if you need to ask prayers of another, why not find a LIVING brother or sister and ask them to pray? This would help further the bond of love between you and would also help the two of you grow in spiritual labor?

Hi Friend, I read this:

The Bible says that he has helpers that participate in his ministry by his invitation. We believe he has invited Christians on both sides of heaven to do that.
When a saint enters into the joy of their Master, they are “put in charge of many things” (Mat 25:21) Saints are serious prayer warriors. I don’t think that praying with the Saints detracts from the worship of God anymore than praying with friends detracts from worship of God, which I do a lot. Saints are not all knowing, but they know a heck of a lot more about this spiritual game than me. They are creatures. This does not take away the tremendous benefit we can get from communing with them. Catholics think “their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world” (Catechism 2683)

And I say, never known was a person who prayed to a Saint, thrown into hell. If that were true and Saints are more divine than my friends and I, we certainly would have our one way ticket down to the darkness. Plus, praying to Saints is not a form of worship. It’s our love for them. I still love my family that have passed and ask for help all the time. Why wouldn’t I pray to the Saints who are in Heaven closer to God than I am at the moment? I figure they have clout.

Love ya’ll,
Sheila

 

[LilyM]

Since when is asking St Anthony to find my car keys for me any worse (or indeed different in any meaningful sense) than asking my very much alive mother to look for them?

To suggest that St Anthony can’t respond to such a request is to suggest that he is less powerful in heaven now than he was on earth where he most certainly could and probably did find lost objects for people.

The Bible says that the prayers of the Righteous avails much…(James 5:16)…and after reading about the Great Cloud of Witnesses (Hebrews Chapters 11 and 12) and the portion of Revelation where our prayers are being given to Jesus…(Rev. 5:6-9 and Rev. 8:3-4) I am inclined to believe that Saints can indeed hear us and present our prayers to Jesus.

I have come to understand that Saints in Heaven are still part of the Family of God ie: They help us reach the Throne of God as PRAYING people of God, just like our friends here on earth who pray for us when we need prayer.

HOWEVER…There are many Catholics who actually ask Saints to “do” Supernatural things…like find them a house, find their keys…etc. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches…if I’m reading the Catechism correctly. When we take our eyes off of Christ and begin asking other Saints to “DO” things for us, rather than “ASK” things for us…we have then replaced our Jesus with His creations which is not something I’m willing to do.

 

[John_Martin]

Praying to the Saints (asking them to pray with us and for us).
We actually have an historical eye witness account of the Saints at work, and of one of our brothers talking face to face with them. The eye witnesses were able to see our brother’s spiritual body and the spiritual body of the two Saints. And when we pray to the Saints, we are doing about the same thing, talking to them, asking them to help express our need for help to our God.

The eye witnesses of the brother talking to the Saints were Peter, James, and John. The brother who was talking to the Saints was our Lord. And the Saints were Moses and Elijah. And he was talking about his upcoming death to and with them. The two Saints were active in the conversation, and although we cannot see them the three disciples were given the gift to see it once, that the Saints are alive and they listen and they speak with our God.

So, if my King, my Lord, my Brother, talks with the Saints, I guess that I can bear my soul to Mary as well as to my Priest and to Jesus.

John Martin

 

[bmonk]

If I might bring out an old chestnut: praying to the saints isn’t praying to the dead but praying to the living.

This was my first thought.

 

[bmonk]

If I might bring out an old chestnut: praying to the saints isn’t praying to the dead but praying to the living.

This was my first thought.

May I ask where the Catholic Church gets the idea that is Scriptural to pray to a saint be they living or dead?? This has always puzzled me because the practice is never advocated or even performed in Scripture? How can Catholics think that this is an acceptable form or prayer?

It is one of those things that are not against scripture, but are remembered and practiced as part of that greater tradition that includes scripture. As mentioned here, Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration, which is similar to turning to the saints for intercession.

It is found in the creed (Apostle’s Creed) as the “communion of saints”: that the Church, the full Body of Christ, consists of people still living on earth, plus those saints living in heaven, and those who still need purification to be with the saints. Hence we pray for the dead, that they be made worthy of heaven, and we ask the saints to pray for us. By the way, this Creed comes from early in Church history: its origin is not recorded, but it existed by 390, likely from about A.D. 180, and was a baptismal profession of faith since that time.

That is very interesting. Most people who oppose the idea of praying to the saints think you guys have a ton of tiny “gods” and “goddesses” you worship!

That is a very unique perspective and, while I can see how it could potentially be true, I ask how the Catholic church can make that into a teaching if God, if Christ, if the apostles, and every other member of the early Church never practiced this sort of petition?

We don’t know that they didn’t. [BIBLEDRB]John 21:25[/BIBLEDRB] And then there is [BIBLEDRB]Rev 5:8[/BIBLEDRB], which speaks of the prayers of the holy ones of God being presented by the 24 elders. Indeed, the widespread nature of the practice, especially once the persecutions began to produce martyrs, argues that many early members of the Church did use this practice.

Finally, I’d have to say that the intercession of the saints is only one thing they do for us, just as prayer of petition is only one form of prayer, and not the greatest.

The saints are models of living the commandment to love and following Christ, they are an inspiration of fidelity and grace, they lead us to Christ, and show us in greater detail what the Gospel can mean.

If the saints are an obstacle between you and Jesus, you need not worry about them. Focus on Jesus. However, not everyone is strong enough or enlightened enough to be so purely focused; would you deny them what they need to come to Christ?

I see it as going on a pilgrimage to a place I’ve never been before. I’m not about to leave at home the best helps to get there, and part of their help is the stories, and the prayers, of those who have successfully made that journey.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I recall reading someplace that to be in Heaven is to be much more alive than one ever was on earth.

 

[keyser_soze]

As always it comes down to how you interpret scripture. There are several old test passages that condemn speaking or trying to communicate with “spirits”. Then there are many new testament passages that command us to communicate directly with God through Jesus Christ.

 

[keyser_soze]

Please keep in mind that in the 1st century 2 of the authors, the Bishops Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna were both close friends and disciples of St. John the apostle and evangelist. You may also find it of interest that Polycarp appears to have been infant baptized by St. John himself.]

I have never heard this before. Can you direct me to where I can read about this? Your link points to VOLUMES of information that I do not have time to read. I would very much like to read the section that talks about John baptizing an infant.

Thanks

 

[You]

As always it comes down to how you interpret scripture. There are several old test passages that condemn speaking or trying to communicate with “spirits”. Then there are many new testament passages that command us to communicate directly with God through Jesus Christ.

Acts Of Apostles 8:24
Then Simon answering, said:** Pray you for me to the Lord**, that none of these things which you have spoken may come upon me.

**Litany of the Saints
**
Lord, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Holy Mary, Mother of God.
Pray for us.
Saint Michael,
Pray for us.
Holy angels of God,
Pray for us.
Saint Joseph,
Pray for us.
Saint John the Baptist,
Pray for us.
Saint Peter and Saint Paul,
Pray for us.
Saint Andrew,
Pray for us.
Saint John,
Pray for us.
Saint Mary Magdalene,
Pray for us.
Saint Stephen,
Pray for us.
Saint Ignatius,
Pray for us.
Saint Lawrence,
Pray for us.
Saint Perpetua and Saint Felicity,
Pray for us.
Saint Agnes,
Pray for us.
Saint Gregory,
Pray for us.
Saint Augustine,
Pray for us.
Saint Athanasius,
Pray for us.
Saint Basil,
Pray for us.
Saint Martin,
Pray for us.
Saint Benedict,
Pray for us.
Saint Francis and Saint Dominic,
Pray for us.
Saint Francis Xavier,
Pray for us.
Saint John Vianney,
Pray for us.
Saint Catherine,
Pray for us.
Saint Theresa,
Pray for us.
All you saints of God,
Pray for us.

Lord,
be merciful,
Lord, save us.
From all harm,
Lord, save us.
From every sin,
Lord, save us.
From all temptations,
Lord, save us.
From everlasting death,
Lord, save us.
By Your coming among us,
Lord, save us.
By Your death and rising to new life,
Lord, save us.
By Your gift of the Holy Spirit,
Lord, save us.

Be merciful to us sinners,
Lord, hear our prayer.
Guide and protect Your Holy Church,
Lord, hear our prayer.
Keep our Pope and all the clergy in faithful service to Your Church.
Lord, hear our prayer.
Bring all people together in trust and peace.
Lord, hear our prayer.
Strengthen us in Your service.
Lord, hear our prayer.

Amen.

 

[Lynxdk]

Yes. It is.

 

[bogeydogg]

A protestant acquaintance asked the question: Isn’t praying to saints who have died the same as necromancy?

I didn’t have an answer for him, so I’m asking fellow Catholics to help me answer this.

Thank you!

Necromancy is by definition witchcraft because it is a means of divination. The dead are sought to tell us things we do not know (the future, the location of Uncle Harolds will). Praying that the saints in Heaven would enjoin with our prayers is to realize that they are where we hope to be. It is humble not witchcraft. The two things are totally different.

God Bless

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. *

The dead are those in hell.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

John Calvin once ordered that a woman be whipped because she was seen praying at the grave of her deceased son, and was thus guilty of “superstition” for praying to the dead.

I wonder how many Protestants who oppose praying to the saints have ever caught themselves praying to their deceased husband, wife, son, daughter, or grandparents. If you think it’s appropriate to say a prayer to a loved one who’s gone to heaven, why not a deceased father of the Church? Because you didn’t know him or her personally? I don’t think the saints would mind and would probably welcome the attention.

As a pretty smart guy once said, “In theory, the Reformation refuses to accept Purgatory, and consequently it also rejects prayers to the departed. In fact, German Lutherans at least have returned to it in practice and have found considerable theological justification for it. Praying for one’s departed loved ones is a far too immediate urge to be suppressed; it is a most beautiful manifestation of solidarity, love and assistance, reaching beyond the barrier of death. The happiness or unhappiness of a person dear to me, who has now crossed to the other shore, depends in part on whether I remember or forget him; he does not stop needing my love.”