Praying to Saints - no one is in heaven before second Advent?

[rien]

An evangelical friend said this about praying to Paul for interecession. Or to any deceased Christian.

“I don’t believe that Paul is alive, though he might be. There are cases of folks being taken to heaven before the second advent, but this not the general case, IMHO.”

She is sort of open to the idea, but in a theorectical sense.

Any ideas?

 

[PinoyCatholic]

Let her try to prove her opinion with Scripture. She cannot.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the **Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, **

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, **at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. **

How does one return from heaven “with all his saints” if they are not in heaven before then?

Note: Those who believe in the rapture could say, those returning with him are those who “meet him in the air”.

 

[holy_wood]

Does your friend believe that the Angels hold greater communion with us than our brothers and sisters in Christ?

They are more alive than we are for though we see through a mirror dimly they can see face to face.
We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
family.

**Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior. **
**1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth. **
Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.

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[puzzleannie]

An evangelical friend said this about praying to Paul for interecession. Or to any deceased Christian.

“I don’t believe that Paul is alive, though he might be. There are cases of folks being taken to heaven before the second advent, but this not the general case, IMHO.”

She is sort of open to the idea, but in a theorectical sense.

Any ideas?

she will then have to defend her idea by telling you where these souls of the deceased, righteous or sinfil, are now. if they are not in heaven, are they all in hell? if not hell, some intermediate place? what would be the purpose of that intermediately place and its name will derive from its purpose.

she will also have to explain away a great number of verses that clearly speak of saints in heaven

 

[Zooey]

She may be talking about “soul sleep” which used to be a very fringe doctrine, but gaining more acceptance with the current crop of “anything to disagree with Catholics” thinking now doing the rounds.
In order to “prove” that, she is going to have to explain away all the Scriptures except small portions of Ecclesiastes (which were written to show us how useless & hopeless life would be without God).
Keep her in the New Testament if she starts that passage going. The NT has to support the Old. She can’t (well, shouldn’t) lean on an obscure passage taken out of context to prove a doctrine which is plainly taught by Christ Himself, as well as throughout the entire NT.

 

[Renton405]

she will then have to defend her idea by telling you where these souls of the deceased, righteous or sinfil, are now. if they are not in heaven, are they all in hell? if not hell, some intermediate place? what would be the purpose of that intermediately place and its name will derive from its purpose.

she will also have to explain away a great number of verses that clearly speak of saints in heaven

I believe Martin Luther created the doctrine of “Soul Sleep”… Being in a sleep until the second coming(judgement)…

 

[inthecloud]

Is more like a SDA/JW doctrine.
Wisdom and Maccabees preclude that for Catholics, but that is missing from their Bibles,

 

[jmcrae]

I believe Martin Luther created the doctrine of “Soul Sleep”… Being in a sleep until the second coming(judgement)…

I doubt that - I think it is a later development, since you don’t find this idea in any of the “mainstream” Protestant churches.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

The souls of the just are in heaven; their bodies will rise when the Lord returns. There is a verse I have heard Protestants quote, something like: to be absent from the body is to be present to the Lord. And what about John’s vision in Revelations? The elders, saints, etc are already in heaven before the seals are opened, etc.

 

[j1s2a3]

We are in union with all creation and it is good.Give quotes fromBible about the souls in heaven ohhh to many…open your Bible and start reading.Praying to saints?Lets do one step at a time.

 

[jcrichton]

An evangelical friend said this about praying to Paul for interecession. Or to any deceased Christian.

“I don’t believe that Paul is alive, though he might be. There are cases of folks being taken to heaven before the second advent, but this not the general case, IMHO.”

She is sort of open to the idea, but in a theorectical sense.

Any ideas?

***Hi, rien!

Here’s the communion of the Saints which many just cannot see:

22 But you are come to mount Sion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels, 23 And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:22-24)

We are invited to the Heavenly Jerusalem, which is in existance prior to the Parousia, where we will share in the Communion of the angels, in the Church, which is ruled by God and where He, Jesus and the Spirits of those made perfect are united.

Maran atha!

Angel***