Praying to Saints

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Ansgar

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I am studying all kinds of texts in the bible to help me talk to my protestant relatives and friends when they wonder about catholic traditions.
On the fisheaters homepage I found a reference to a verse in the old testament proofing that Saints in heaven interseed for us. I looked it up and was baffled that ONLY in one bible version did it say this
TOB 12:15
*** I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."** *

In all other versions and in Swedish, German, French and the Latin Vulgata Douay–Rheims Bible it omits the words about prayers of saints. it rather says

*** I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand in the glorious presence of the Lord, ready to serve him.***I surely would like to understand this !!

I have had a very strong belief in the RSV beeing solid. but this is upsetting.

Any idea somebody?
 
It’s should be there. Check verse 12.

When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord. (Tobit 12:12)

-Tim-
 
I have never understood prayer and worship to saints. Where is this backed in the bible?

It appears the bible says just the opposite…
 
I looked it up and was baffled that ONLY in one bible version did it say this…
Different English translations of the Bible are based on something like five somewhat divergent editions of Tobit (cf. Jewish Encyclopedia, “Tobit”, under heading “Text and Original Language”, at jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14422-tobit-book-of). Hence different English translations will vary considerably in actual content, above and beyond what you’d expect from mere differences in how to translate something.
 
I doubt that you’ll find Tobit a persuasive argument for your Protestant friends and relatives. They reject Tobit as Scripture, though it was (and is) Scripture for centuries before Martin Luther decided it wasn’t (as if he were chosen by God to undo what God had done in guiding the Catholic Bishops to name the canon of Scripture for the original Bible at the end of the fourth century).

Here’s help for you:

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

I was persuaded by historical facts. For example, the tomb of Peter, located directly under the main altar of Saint Peter’s Basilica in the Church built by Constantine in the fourth century and rebuilt by Bramante and Michaelangelo, is in an ancient cemetary on Vatican Hill. The tomb of the Valerii contains this first-century inscription: Peter pray for the pious Christian men buried near your body. The catacombs are full of prayers to the saints, inscribed in stone, asking for their intercession. Another example, under the Church of San Sebastian (second half of the third century) is inscribed on a wall, “Paule ed Petre petite pro Victore” (Paul and Peter pray for Victor).

Praying to the Saints (asking the Saints to pray for us or our loved ones) is the Christian thing to do, The evidence shows that it was taught by the Apostles to the first Christians.
 
I have never understood prayer and worship to saints. Where is this backed in the bible?

It appears the bible says just the opposite…
No Christian for sixteen centuries expected that the Christian faith would be explicitly explained in the Bible. That’s an erroneous expectation popularized among Protestants by their founding father, one Martin Luther, with his novel doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher. The Church wrote the New Testament during the first Christian century, and at the end of the fourth century discerned the contents of the OT and NT, gave them their names, and compiled and named the Bible.

The Bible is not a systematic instruction book in Christianity – never was, never will be. The NT consists of 27 of the Church’s own writings. The OT is the written record of the spiritual life of the People of God called Israel, under the Old Covenant, written over a period of about a thousand years. The NT is the written record of the spiritual life of the People of God called the Catholic Church, under the New Covenant, during the first 50 years or so after her founding by Jesus Christ. The NT is based on the teaching of the Church, not vice versa. In all things,the Church is guided by the Spirit.

Saints are not worshipped. They are our elder brothers and sisters in the faith, interceding for us before Christ and the Father in heaven. They are the “great cloud of witnesses” referred to in Hebrews 12:1. We try to be like them.

Peace be with you.
 
I have never understood prayer and worship to saints.
Prayer = communication.

Have you ever asked anyone that you know to pray for something that you desire? Help for healing? Help to end abortion? I ask saints to pray for me too. I don’t worship saints, however. I am of the opinion that the act of worship is for God alone. (I know at least one person wants to say that the word “worship” has been twisted to mean something different. But, the Church is clear that we give adoration to only God.)
 
Thanks for good advises.
I understand the reaction considering sola scriptura etc. All of this I am guite good at arguing myself, after many discussions and a lot of reading.
Here, aside from the discussion with Protestants, I was baffled by the RSV beeing the very sole bible to insert the said text. Normally, when comparing bible versions and other languages I can clearly see the reason for differences. But this time not. Seems like an insertion.

I would need to get info from an exegete. Anyone out there?
 
Prayer = communication.

Have you ever asked anyone that you know to pray for something that you desire? Help for healing? Help to end abortion? I ask saints to pray for me too. I don’t worship saints, however. I am of the opinion that the act of worship is for God alone. (I know at least one person wants to say that the word “worship” has been twisted to mean something different. But, the Church is clear that we give adoration to only God.)
Indeed. When I pray for my friend I do not pray to him in which scripture forbid, I say a pray to God for him. The bible is crystal clear, only Christ is a mediator between God and man. Praying to my friend or to Saints is questionable in terms of being prudent.

Whom we address our prayers is critical. “Dear God” is wise in starting a prayer…on the other hand starting a praying “Dear pizza man” is NOT.
 
Indeed. When I pray for my friend I do not pray to him in which scripture forbid, I say a pray to God for him. The bible is crystal clear, only Christ is a mediator between God and man. Praying to my friend or to Saints is questionable in terms of being prudent.

Whom we address our prayers is critical. “Dear God” is wise in starting a prayer…on the other hand starting a praying “Dear pizza man” is NOT.
I’ll try again…

As always, God is the source and the one with the power. Saints have zero power (just like me, you and the pizza man). However, the saints can ask God for help the same way that people like me, you, and the pizza man can - through prayer. Now, if I’m going to ask someone to pray (to God) for me - I think it would be best if they have a closer relationship with God as opposed to a distant one. Saints are standing before God, and might be able to get his attention better than someone who is maybe not all that close to God.

The wedding at Cana - the people are out of wine. Mary asks Jesus to fix it. He says that he doesn’t want to, but she keeps on asking. Jesus performs the miracle. I have no problem asking Mary to go to her son and ask Him for some assistance.

When Catholic pray “to saints”, it isn’t to say, “Oh please Mr. Saint, use your power to heal me directly.” Rather, it goes more like this, “Oh please Mr. Saint, please ask Jesus to bring healing to my friend, the pizza man.”
 
I understand your point. My disagreement would be in Timothy scripture, it states Christ is the only mediator between man and God. With you asking Saints to be your mediator to God seems as a biblical conflict.
I’ll try again…

As always, God is the source and the one with the power. Saints have zero power (just like me, you and the pizza man). However, the saints can ask God for help the same way that people like me, you, and the pizza man can - through prayer. Now, if I’m going to ask someone to pray (to God) for me - I think it would be best if they have a closer relationship with God as opposed to a distant one. Saints are standing before God, and might be able to get his attention better than someone who is maybe not all that close to God.

The wedding at Cana - the people are out of wine. Mary asks Jesus to fix it. He says that he doesn’t want to, but she keeps on asking. Jesus performs the miracle. I have no problem asking Mary to go to her son and ask Him for some assistance.

When Catholic pray “to saints”, it isn’t to say, “Oh please Mr. Saint, use your power to heal me directly.” Rather, it goes more like this, “Oh please Mr. Saint, please ask Jesus to bring healing to my friend, the pizza man.”
 
I understand your point. My disagreement would be in Timothy scripture, it states Christ is the only mediator between man and God. With you asking Saints to be your mediator to God seems as a biblical conflict.
Well if Timothy says there is only one mediator, then it contradicts 2 Corinthians which says that the apostles mediated between God and Man in the place of Christ: “Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.”
 
It’s should be there. Check verse 12.

When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord. (Tobit 12:12)

-Tim-
TIm, I am not saying that it isn´t right in its meaning. I am only talking about my astonishment that RSV, which I normally trust, is the only of the many versions which I have looked up, including Douay Reims and Vulgata that inserted this text into vers 15. WHY??
 
TIm, I am not saying that it isn´t right in its meaning. I am only talking about my astonishment that RSV, which I normally trust, is the only of the many versions which I have looked up, including Douay Reims and Vulgata that inserted this text into vers 15. WHY??
I dunno?

Every translation has its little idiosyncrasies, I guess.
 
I understand your point. My disagreement would be in Timothy scripture, it states

Christ is the only mediator between man and God. With you asking Saints to be your mediator to God seems as a

biblical conflict.
Mediator of a covenant.

We have to see the context, and remember that the audience is Jewish.

The word mediator is used four times in the New Testament. This is where it helps to have a good concordance, or use an online concordance.

*For there is one God.
There is also one mediator between God and the human race
,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
who gave himself as ransom for all.
(1 Timothy 2:5-6)

Now he has obtained so much more excellent a ministry as he is mediator of a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:6)

For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. (Hebrews 9:15)

…and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquent than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:24)*

Paul speaks of Christ being the only mediator between God and the human race, and being the mediator of a new covenant.

Hit the pause button here…

Always remember that the Jews were covenant people. Whenever we hear the word Jew, we should immediately think “Covenant.” To the Jews, the covenant with God was everything. The Jews were God’s chosen people, the only nation with whom God chose to enter into a covenant. Covenants create family bonds. This was the whole idenity of the Jewish people from the time of Moses to the time of Jesus. Moses was mediator of the first covenant. Moses spoke to God directly, recieving information about what the covenant entailed, its responsibilities and obligations, its reward (blessing and life) and penalties (curse and death). The people would not approach God directly, but had Moses do so.

Now as all the people witnessed the thunder and lightning, the blast of the shofar and the mountain smoking, they became afraid and trembled.So they took up a position farther away and said to Moses, “You speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let God speak to us, or we shall die.” Moses answered the people, “Do not be afraid, for God has come only to test you and put the fear of him upon you so you do not sin.” So the people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the dark cloud where God was. (Exodus 20:18-21)

Only Moses spoke to God, and Moses brought the details of God’s covenant to the people, the people ratified it, and Moses went back to God and sealed the covenant with blood.

When Moses came to the people and related all the words and ordinances of the LORD, they all answered with one voice, “We will do everything that the LORD has told us.” Moses then wrote down all the words of the LORD and, rising early in the morning, he built at the foot of the mountain an altar and twelve sacred stones for the
twelve tribes of Israel. Then, having sent young men of the Israelites to offer burnt offerings and sacrifice young bulls as communion offerings to the LORD, Moses took half of the blood and put it in large bowls; the other half he splashed on the altar. Taking the book of the covenant, he read it aloud to the people, who answered, all that the LORD has said, we will hear and do.” Then he took the blood and splashed it on the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words
.” (Exodus 24:3-8)*

The words in red are key. Moses is the mediator of the covenant between God and the Jews. Moses speaks directly to God and directly to man, and goes between them, communicating back and forth with regards to the covenant - its responsibilities and obligations, blessings and curses, life and death. Moses seals the covenant with blood splashed on the people and on the book. Moses goes up to the mountain and speaks with God.

Release the pause button now…

The word mediator was written by Paul, a Jew, a scholar of the Jewish scriptures, an expert in all things related to the covenant, and a person who lived under the Old Covenant of Moses. Paul is writing to Jews who understood the covenant, and who would have seen Jesus, as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, would have seen Jesus as the New Moses. Paul was explaining Jesus in terms of Moses and the Old Covenant, and explaining how Christ is the New Moses. Christ and Moses are both mediators of a covenant:
  • Moses communicated with both God and man. Christ was both God and man, so Christ could communicate with both God and man.
  • Moses sealed the old covenant with blood. Christ sealed the new covenant with his own blood.
  • Moses went up on the mountain to talk to God. Christ went up on the mountain and ascended to Heaven to be with God.
That’s all Paul is saying, that Christ is the only mediator between God and Man because christ alone is both God and Man, and what Christ mediates is the new covenant, just like Moses mediated the old covenant.

Christ is the one mediator ***of a covenant *** between God and man.

Paul’s use of the phrase “one mediator between God and man” has to be taken in terms of the covenant. Remember that paul is writing to Jews, covenant people. We have to always keep the audience and context in mind.

-Tim-
 
I appreciate Tim’s information presented on the term “mediator”.
I understand your point. My disagreement would be in Timothy scripture, it states Christ is the only mediator between man and God. With you asking Saints to be your mediator to God seems as a biblical conflict.
Do you have a different way to explain or define the term “mediator”? Your definition will need to demonstrate the difference between the following two cases:
  1. I ask my living friend to pray for me. I think you agree this is good. 👍
  2. I ask my dead friend to pray for me. You say this is bad. :eek:
I am not able to see where a dead person praying for me becomes a mediator to God where a living person praying for me is doing something good.

I’d like to ask for another consideration. Imagine that requesting the help of saints is a good thing and makes it more difficult for Satan to do his mischief. Getting people to reject this help of the saints then benefits the evil one. Therefore, it seems like we would need to be very certain that this rejection of help is proper. The problem that I have is there are documented miracles that confirm the benefit that comes with the help of the saints.
 
I have never understood prayer and worship to saints. Where is this backed in the bible?

It appears the bible says just the opposite…
Your first question should be:

Where does the Bible teach it must be taught,explained,appear,etc in the Bible to make true?
 
Indeed. When I pray for my friend I do not pray to him in which scripture forbid, I say a pray to God for him. The bible is crystal clear, only Christ is a mediator between God and man. Praying to my friend or to Saints is questionable in terms of being prudent
St. Paul’s words - “… I urge that … intercessions … be offered for all men” I Tim 2:1.

Intercession: a pleading on behalf of another person (Webster).

Intercessor: a person who intercedes (Webster).

Mediator: a person who mediates between parties so as to effect agreement or reconciliation
(Webster).

Mediation: the process of agreement or reconciliation between parties (Webster)

A mediator is an intercessor and vice versa. Christ interceded for us before the Father.

What “one mediator between God and man” means in Scripture is that Christ, the God-Man, reconciled the human race with God. He, being God, was the only one who could accomplish this. He is the capitol ‘M’ Mediator. That is absolutely true. But Christ calls every Christian to be a small ‘m’ mediator in sharing His Truth – the gospel – with others and to pray (mediate, intercede) for one another.

Those not members of the Catholic Church have made their own interpretation of Scripture, but the Church is the only God-given interpreter. After all, she wrote the New Testament and certainly knows what it means.

History as well as the Scriptures show the correct interpretation. Peter pray for the pious Christian men buried near your body. See my post #5.

Jim Dandy
Former Protestant, so happy to be Catholic!

Saint Damien, pray (intercede) for us!
 
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