Praying to saints

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AveChriste11

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Hi everyone,

So I’m sure this question has been asked a whole lot of times on this forum. If it has, you can refer me to a link where it’s been answered and I would be happy with that. But, I was wondering why do Catholics pray to saints, or to Mary, etc.? Why can’t you just pray to Christ directly? Like I’ve heard the idea that because St. Anthony or Mary is actually closer to God than we are, then he is more likely to listen to them than us. But why do you have to be in Heaven to be “closer to God”, why can’t you be close to him right now by reading the Bible as God’s Word, and giving to God whatever is on our heart? I’ve always heard the most direct way to a point is a straight line, so I would think it would be true even with this?

Sincerely,
Andrew
 
Friend, as a former atheist & then an evangelical Anglican, I know the substance of your objection very strongly. The Lord Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God & Man in that He is the Incarnate Logos, connecting Divine & human natures once-for-all. He alone can offer the propitiation, atonement, and expiation for sins. That is not what we ask for from the saints, however… 🙂

I was convinced that prayer to the saints is not impossible by the words of our Lord & Saviour in Luke 15. He says that when a single sinner repents, there is great joy in Heaven, and all the angels rejoice over a penitent person. Clearly the citizens of That Holy Place are alive and aware of things. We are in total communion one with another - a radical unity in the Lord Jesus.

If all of Heaven knows when a single sinner repents, even in the depths of his heart, then all of Heaven knows when a single sinner asks for prayers. It’s exactly equivalent to asking prayers for those on Earth, because the bond & link is not broken by death. Were it broken by death, Christ died (and is risen) in vain. May God forbid that we should even say such a thing. Go ahead and ask any of us for prayers - you can do it, because of the bond we share in the internet; how much more, in the bond of Heaven?

The only reason not to ask fellow saints in Heaven to pray for us is if we do not believe the prayers of others can help us. This is either despair or pride, and neither of those have a place in Christianity. Either ask for prayer from every possible quarter, or ask for none.
 
With regards to God being more likely to hear the saints or even His mother than to hear us: don’t believe it. The precious blood of Christ was shed to redeem us from our fallen, cursed nature. Our Father in Heaven hears the prayers of the meekest sinner and the holiest saint, if made through the Lord Jesus. Remember that His Mother and His Brethren are those who hear the Word of God and do it. That is the basis of Him hearing us.

We ask the saints to pray because we need their prayers - on Earth and in Heaven.

My own rationale for saint-praying is the same as praying for the dead: eternity. They have all entered the eternal realm of God’s blessed Kingdom. The New Jerusalem has descended for them, already. The Resurrection is theirs already - as is theosis, and the partaking of the divine nature. It’s radical, but it’s true. God will hear us through Christ, but we need prayers.

The practice may also simply act to help individuals to build up that sense of the bond of unity in the Church. We’re alive - we’re all alive in Christ, alleluia.
 
YiiNaa said:
The official protestant position:

carm.org/praying-saints-biblical
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This is wrong on multiple accounts. First off, there is no one “Protestant position.” While, yes, to the best of my knowledge no Protestant groups pray to saints, there’s still many denominations. It’d be like saying CARM’s view of the Eucharist is indicative of all Protestant groups. But even if we don’t think they have valid orders, Lutherans still believe in what could be called consubstantiation. If I remember correctly, they believe Jesus is there, but don’t feel a need to explain how.

Also, using CARM to speak for all Protestants would be like using Jack Chick for the same or Richard Dawkins for atheism. You don’t turn to the most extreme examples.

All that being said, here’s my usual (slightly snarky) defense of praying to the saints and making icons of them:
You’d ask someone here on Earth to pray for you, right? Well what’s so different about asking someone in Heaven? Also, if making any sort of picture is bad, then why do you have money? It has pictures of dead presidents. And why do you have family photos as well?
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Point is, the only big difference between praying to a saint and asking someone to pray for you is that the saint’s already in Heaven.
 
  1. Those who are in heaven are perfectly conformed to the image of Christ. (Romans 8:29, I John 3:2)
  2. Christ lives to make intercession for us (Hebrews 7:25)
Therefore:
  1. Those who are in heaven-- if they are perfectly comformed to His image-- must also be interceding for us.
 
Brywan said:
  1. Those who are in heaven are perfectly conformed to the image of Christ. (Romans 8:29, I John 3:2)
  2. Christ lives to make intercession for us (Hebrews 7:25)
Therefore:
  1. Those who are in heaven-- if they are perfectly comformed to His image-- must also be interceding for us.
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That’s lovely! Thank you. 🙂
 
AveChriste11 said:
why do Catholics pray to saints, or to Mary, etc.? Why can’t you just pray to Christ directly?
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You would be right if we prayed to the saints. But we don’t. We pray for their intercession.

Search the forum: you will find a “prayer intentions” group where Christians ask other Christians to pray to God on their behalf.

Ever since time immemorial, we have believed in the Communion of Saints:
  • us, the Church Militant, in the state of grace are also termed “saints” (as s. Paul writes)
  • souls in Purgatory: the saints of the Church Penitent
  • souls in Heaven: the saints of the Church Triumphant
This is the Communion of Saints: we are all members of one body, the body of Christ. We all pray for each other’s intercession. We all pray to God, and to God alone.

The reason we seek the intercession of the “saints” (as in those souls who have been saved, though we specifically ask to canonized saints whom we know without possibility of error that are in heaven, or to Our Lady, the theotokos) is because we live in a state of imperfection, tainted by sin, moved by concupiscence. Even our most kind prayer is not unselfish and self-giving, but ultimately tainted by our will: we want “our will” to be done, whether it is for our good or for the good of another soul. We ask for a saint’s intercession (or for that of the greatest of all saints, Our Lady) because they will know how to present our petition to Christ removing all trace of imperfection and adorning it with their own beauty.

It used to be a basic Euclidean tenet that the shortest path between two points is a straight line. It isn’t, according to modern, non-Euclidean geometry that models spacetime. Even further, it is written:
I will lead the blind by ways they have not known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them
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Now a few quotes:
“the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8).
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“[An] angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).
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in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father (Mt 18:10)
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Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).
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Church Father Origen (184-254 AD):
But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep
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Church Father Cyprian of Carthage (200-258 AD):
Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy
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Church Father Methodius (III Century):
Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).
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“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).
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"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God
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So, as you can see and probably contrary to what you may have heard, it was not the “Roman Catholics” who came up with prayer for intercession of the saints, but it was an orthodox Christian and apostolic teaching upheld since the days of the early Church.
 
YiiNaa said:
The official protestant position:

carm.org/praying-saints-biblical
Click to expand...
as someone who Anglican roots, I am a bit surprised that you would offer this as “the official protestant position”. There are Anglicans that practice invocation of the saints.

There is no “official protestant position” on anything because there is no “protestant church”.

Finally, when the author says: *Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry. * he is missing the important point that “prayer” has more than one meaning.

Jon
 
AveChriste11 said:
Hi everyone,

So I’m sure this question has been asked a whole lot of times on this forum. If it has, you can refer me to a link where it’s been answered and I would be happy with that. But, I was wondering why do Catholics pray to saints, or to Mary, etc.? Why can’t you just pray to Christ directly? Like I’ve heard the idea that because St. Anthony or Mary is actually closer to God than we are, then he is more likely to listen to them than us. But why do you have to be in Heaven to be “closer to God”, why can’t you be close to him right now by reading the Bible as God’s Word, and giving to God whatever is on our heart? I’ve always heard the most direct way to a point is a straight line, so I would think it would be true even with this?

Sincerely,
Andrew
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I figured I would illustrate it with a picture:

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/547564_10200883801408020_816656735_n.jpg
 
I think that the Catholic Church is the only faith that runs with the idea and lives as though the saints are part of our family right now…not in the future…right now. Salvation is sooooo much more than being forgiven. It is becoming adopted sons and daughters. Through Christ we are family. We are family to everyone in heaven…in purgatory…and on earth. We celebrate birthdays and feast day and we count on our family. So…why not ask my brother or sister who is enjoying the beatific vision to help me in my request to Jesus.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
 
I pray for others all the time, and the prayers of others have helped me.
 
Classicist said:
With regards to God being more likely to hear the saints or even His mother than to hear us: don’t believe it…
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God certainly hears all prayers, but having them merely heard is not the primary objective - having them answered is. And as to your claim that there is no difference - from God’s perspective - between who the person praying for something is:
James 5:16
…pray for one another, that you may be healed. **The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. **
 
JonNC said:
as someone who Anglican roots, I am a bit surprised that you would offer this as “the official protestant position”. There are Anglicans that practice invocation of the saints.

There is no “official protestant position” on anything because there is no “protestant church”.

Finally, **when the author says: *Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry. *** he is missing the important point that “prayer” has more than one meaning.

Jon
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Yes, I read through the article and the author seemed to want to equate “prayer” with “worship”, and in that statement he effectively does. Curiously though, Scripture does not equate prayer with worship. I wonder if the author sees this as his own addition to Scripture? It’s one thing to say that prayer can be a part of worship…but to that " to offer prayer] is to offer worship" makes an equation that Scripture simply does not make.
 
Classicist said:
With regards to God being more likely to hear the saints or even His mother than to hear us: don’t believe it.
Click to expand...
Today is the Solemnity of the Annunciation:

In honor of Mary, the Mother of God, Mediatrix of all graces.

Ora pro nobis, Sancta Dei Genitrix!
Mary’s Power of Intercession*
Code: 
                                                                                                                                                                             **Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.**


                                                   Mary’s mediation in heaven which she has exercised since the  Assumption has as purpose to obtain for us the application at the  appropriate time of Jesus’ merits and hers, acquired during their life  on earth and especially on Calvary. …
Mary’s Power of Intercession
Even during her life on earth, Mary appears in the gospels as distributing graces. Jesus sanctifies the precursor through her when she comes to visit her cousin Elisabeth. Through her he confirms the faith of his disciples at Cana by performing the miracle for which she asked. Through her he confirms John’s faith on Calvary, saying: “Son, behold thy mother.” Through her finally the Holy Spirit gave himself to the Apostles, for we read in the Acts (Acts 1:14) that she prayed with them in the Cenacle while they prepared themselves for the apostolate and for the light and strength and graces of Pentecost.

With still greater reason is Mary powerful in her intercession now that she has entered heaven and has been lifted up above the choirs of the angels. The Christian sense of the faithful assures us that a mother in heaven knows the spiritual needs of the children she has left behind her on earth, and that she prays for their salvation. It is a universal for the faithful to recommend themselves to the prayers of the saints in heaven. As St. Thomas says (1), when the saints were on earth, their charity led them to pray for their neighbor. With still greater reason do we say that in heaven they pray for their neighbor since when their charity is inflamed by the beatific vision it is greater than it was on earth: Their charity in heaven is uninterrupted in its acts and proceeds from a fuller realization of human needs and the value of life eternal.

The Council of Trent defined that the saints in heaven pray for us and that it is useful to invoke them (Denz. 984). Their merits and their expiation have ceased, but not their prayer—no longer a prayer of tearful supplication but one now of intercession.

St. Paul tells us that our Blessed Lord does not cease to make intercession for us (2). He is the principal and necessary intercessor.
But Jesus himself wishes that we should have recourse to Mary so that our prayers may have greater value through being presented by her.
As Mother of all men Mary knows the spiritual needs of all men, knows all that concerns their salvation. Because of her immense charity she prays for them. And since she is all-powerful with her Son because of the love by which they are united, she obtains from him all the graces for which she asks—that is to say, all the graces we receive.
This power of Mary’s intercession is proclaimed by the faithful each time they recite the* Hail Mary.*
Theology explains the belief of the faithful by pointing to three fundamental reasons for Mary’s power of intercession.
The first of these is that since Mary is Mother of men she knows all their spiritual needs. It is a principle admitted by all theologians that the happiness of the blessed in heaven would not be complete if they did not know what happens on earth to the extent to which it concerns them by reason of their office, their role, or their relations with men. Such knowledge is the object of a legitimate desire which must find its satisfaction in beatitude, and with all the more reason when the knowledge they desire is of men’s spiritual needs and is therefore desired in charity: it is in charity that the saints desire men’s salvation so that they may glorify God with them for all eternity and share thus in their happiness. Fathers and mothers, for example, know from heaven the needs of their children, especially those which bear on their salvation. The same may be said of the founders of religious institutes. With all the more reason may the same be said of Our Lady, who has the highest degree of glory after her Son: as Mother of all men she must know everything which bears directly or indirectly on the supernatural life which she has been commissioned to give us and to nourish in us…[continued here…]** motherofallpeoples.com/2007/10/marys-power-of-intercession/**
 
The Layman’s response:
  1. Because it has been practiced by the earliest of Christians–evidenced even in the catacombs;
  2. Because the Saints are part of the same Body of Christ to which we all belong–with Christ as ‘head’–hence invoking the Saints, is basically appealing to ‘Team work’;
  3. It’s not ‘us’ or ‘me’ vs. the Saints, as to who has ‘better access’ to Christ, ‘the head’–rather it’s ‘my petitions’ joined with those of others–in particular, those with established ‘cred’ (i.e.–the Saints)–to Chirst–is more likely to be more compelling to God, than merely ours, by themselves;
  4. They have been declared ‘Saints’ because of the way in which they lived their lives–believed to be Christlike–hence we appeal to these specifically identified souls, as exemplary of how we should live ours;
  5. We consider them our family–and as such, on the same ‘team’ (ref. good v. bad);
  6. Satan doesn’t simply tempt us individually–he has legions of demons who do his dirty work; we too, have access to legions of Angels and Saints–agents of/for God and good–whom we may commision to combat evil, and help us to serve God–therefore we’d be remiss not to avail ourselves of such…and arguably even arrogant, to think we don’t need their help;
  7. Why not?;
  8. Christ called them ‘friends’ (’…therefore I no longer call you slaves…but friends’)–as in His friends;
  9. Is the Lord really going to be upset with us, for assembling a team of his friends, in His name, to glorify Him? (assuming our prayers are rightly ordered–i.e.–consistent with His Will);
Finally…
  1. What do you suppose happens to those Saints, when they depart this life? Are we to neglect them? Treat them as the secular, atheist, agnostic, non-believing, evild doing dead? Do you think that our family/friends/fellow members of the Body of Christ don’t want to be bothered? Don’t want to be prayed to? Don’t want to be given the opportunity to further server our Lord, by serving ‘the least of these’? …their ‘neighbors’?
We honor the Saints, by invoking them to further service of the Lord–by appealing to them for guidance, and for assistance–and the Lord is thereby honored and pleased, when the members of His body work in cooperation for fulfillment of His Will.

…just one lay person’s take.
 
Philthy said:
God certainly hears all prayers, but having them merely heard is not the primary objective - having them answered is. And as to your claim that there is no difference - from God’s perspective - between who the person praying for something is:
James 5:16
…pray for one another, that you may be healed. **The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. **
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You know, I always saw that as an exhortation to us to become righteous men, as the Psalms command of us. Maybe that’s too demanding… 😛

The full first half of the verse is “Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray for one another…”, leading into your quote. It’s pretty clear that James associates confession of sin with righteousness, and so all become more righteous as they become more pure. Obviously the saints in Heaven are perfectly ready and in God, and they are the righteous ones made perfect by the Lamb.

I just wanted to say that Christ, our Righteousness, accepts our meek & humble prayers too, based on His own merits - which we often seem to forget. 🙂
 
R_C said:
You would be right if we prayed to the saints. But we don’t. We pray for their intercession.

Search the forum: you will find a “prayer intentions” group where Christians ask other Christians to pray to God on their behalf.

Ever since time immemorial, we have believed in the Communion of Saints:
  • us, the Church Militant, in the state of grace are also termed “saints” (as s. Paul writes)
  • souls in Purgatory: the saints of the Church Penitent
  • souls in Heaven: the saints of the Church Triumphant
This is the Communion of Saints: we are all members of one body, the body of Christ. We all pray for each other’s intercession. We all pray to God, and to God alone.

The reason we seek the intercession of the “saints” (as in those souls who have been saved, though we specifically ask to canonized saints whom we know without possibility of error that are in heaven, or to Our Lady, the theotokos) is because we live in a state of imperfection, tainted by sin, moved by concupiscence. Even our most kind prayer is not unselfish and self-giving, but ultimately tainted by our will: we want “our will” to be done, whether it is for our good or for the good of another soul. We ask for a saint’s intercession (or for that of the greatest of all saints, Our Lady) because they will know how to present our petition to Christ removing all trace of imperfection and adorning it with their own beauty.

It used to be a basic Euclidean tenet that the shortest path between two points is a straight line. It isn’t, according to modern, non-Euclidean geometry that models spacetime. Even further, it is written:

Now a few quotes:

Church Father Origen (184-254 AD):

Church Father Cyprian of Carthage (200-258 AD):

Church Father Methodius (III Century):

So, as you can see and probably contrary to what you may have heard, it was not the “Roman Catholics” who came up with prayer for intercession of the saints, but it was an orthodox Christian and apostolic teaching upheld since the days of the early Church.
Click to expand...
Even Some Jews Today are praying/asking the deceased dzaddik to pray on their behalf.
Google> ‘‘Is it ok to ask a deceased dzaddik to pray on my behalf’’

I don’t see in scripture that the Apostles Prayed to OT saints or NT saints that have passed on. Nor did they teach this in scripture. If they also did not teach this Orally. How Can this be a Apostolic teaching ?
 
shaky said:
I don’t see in scripture that the Apostles Prayed to OT saints or NT saints that have passed on. Nor did they teach this in scripture. If they also did not teach this Orally. How Can this be a Apostolic teaching ?
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It is not explicit, but implied. The writings of the ECF’s point to an already long-established practice of praying for one another, including those who have passed on. We also se, explicit in Scripture, the act of praying for one another and asking fellow Christians for prayers/intercessions. This carries forward to those passed on before us in the fact that God is the God of the living. In other words, we do not cease to live when we pass on…we are actually more alive than ever in God’s presence. I don’t see why it would need to be specified explicitly that the Apostles prayed to the departed. At any rate, we do see intercession is Scripture, form the OT to the NT. We see God using Nathan as a mediator between Him and David, we see it in Joshua, Tobit, Job, Daniel, and even a really good glimpse in Revelation where out prayers are presented to God, not by us, but by the Angels who have gathered them, etc…
 
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