Praying to Saints

[Lazerlike42]

Both Catholics believe in something called Sola Dei Verbum, the word of God alone. However, there is a dispute between where that word can be found.

Let me ask this question: why do you believe the Bible? Why don’t you believe that Plato’s The Republic is any more authoritative than the Scriptures?

 

[E.E.N.S]

jc91087:

But the Bible is the Word of God, how can you say that you don’t base all your faith and what not on the Bible?

The Word of God is not limited to the Bible, for St. Paul tells us to hold fast to the traditions that [the apostles] handed down, whether by word of mouth (Sacred Tradition) or by letter (Sacred Scripture.)

 

[mercygate]

Matt14:

Who was promised to be guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth?

Those at the Last Supper: the 11.

 

[Matt14]

mercygate:

Those at the Last Supper: the 11.

Right. Of course, Paul was given a special commission, guaranteeing his inspiration.

The question was asked by someone, “How do we even know what books belong in the Bible?”

I would say that if it did not originate with one of these 12, it should not be included.

And since only apostles were guaranteed inspiration, I prefer to rest on the scriptures, and not on the handing down of tradition from the apostles through uninspired men.

But, that’s just me.

 

[Genesis315]

Matt14:

I would say that if it did not originate with one of these 12, it should not be included.

So you reject the entire OT as well as the Gospels of Luke and Mark?

 

[Genesis315]

Matt14:

And since only apostles were guaranteed inspiration, I prefer to rest on the scriptures, and not on the handing down of tradition from the apostles through uninspired men.

But, that’s just me.

What would be the point of the Holy Spirit bringing them to all Truth if it wouldn’t preserve that Truth? And no, just having the Scriptures doesn’ preserve that Truth, the true interpretation has to be preserved as well.

 

[scylla]

It is either the tradition of the apostles or the tradition of someone elses understanding of the faith.

Regardless of the source we all come to the Bible with a tradition of understanding. A non-denominational Christian would come to the Bible with the understanding of his particular group. For example Calvary Chapel adherents would approach the Bible with Chuck Smith’s understanding of the Scriputures, if they disagree they then change the faith slowly or split into another church like what happened with Vineyard.

The Catholic Church is Biblically based but not based on the Bible as it came before the Bible. The Bible was compiled so that Christians would know what was appropriate to read at Mass.

As for praying to Saints…Asking for the intercession of the saints, goes back to the understanding of the Communion of Saints.
ccel.org/creeds/apostles.creed.html

If you would like more clarification on the Communion of Saints I will gladly post more.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[mercygate]

Matt14:

Right. Of course, Paul was given a special commission, guaranteeing his inspiration.

The question was asked by someone, “How do we even know what books belong in the Bible?”

I would say that if it did not originate with one of these 12, it should not be included.

C’mon, Matt – care to re-state that? Mark? Luke? Hebrews ('course, I think Paul wrote it but even the Early Fathers claimed nobody knew)?

And since only apostles were guaranteed inspiration, I prefer to rest on the scriptures, and not on the handing down of tradition from the apostles through uninspired men.

Ah, but the Catholic position is that the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is promised by Jesus to the Apostles and must be handed down (as in the election and laying on of hands so that Matthias could be “enrolled with the Apostles,”). And Jesus promises to be “with you all days,” again, addressing the 11.

Your statement appears to assume that the Bishops of the Church, part of whose job it is to preserve Scripture – and who forebears have done just that for 2000 years – are less inspired than the printed page, or less inspired than we are when we read the Bible. But Catholics believe in the living presence of the Holy Spirit, not only in each one of us, but with his particular charism to each segment of the Church according to its ministry: “to some Apostles, prophets, teachers . . .” To the Apostles (the bishops are their successors in communion with the See of Peter) comes the inspiration proper to the Church.

 

[Matt14]

Genesis315:

So you reject the entire OT

No, of course not. I was referring to the New Testament.

as well as the Gospels of Luke and Mark?

No. Early Christian writers attest that Mark wrote from Peter’s influence, and Luke wrote from Paul’s.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Matt14:

The question was asked by someone, “How do we even know what books belong in the Bible?”

I would say that if it did not originate with one of these 12, it should not be included.​

What about the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Mark or Luke? They were not apostles.

 

[Matt14]

Folks, this is interesting and fun, but I’ve got to take off. I’ll respond to all posts to me tomorrow, Lord willing.

Thank you all so much for how you’ve taken me in and treated me like family!

God bless.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Matt14:

Folks, this is interesting and fun, but I’ve got to take off. I’ll respond to all posts to me tomorrow, Lord willing.

Thank you all so much for how you’ve taken me in and treated me like family!

God bless.

Have a blessed day, and remember, "…faith, hope and charity…and the greatest of these is charity…."

 

[Genesis315]

Matt14:

No. Early Christian writers attest that Mark wrote from Peter’s influence, and Luke wrote from Paul’s.

So you would except the writings of Ignatious of Antioch then? He got his stuff from John’s influence as well as Peter’s.

(by the way, by citing what early Christians attested to you, you are trusting Tradition. How do you know what they attest to is true?)

Also, how do you come to a conclusion on the OT canon? There were a bunch floating around for a while (Spetuagint, Jamnia, Ethiopian, Sadduccees, combinations an variations).

 

[Fidelis]

Matt14:

The question was asked by someone, “How do we even know what books belong in the Bible?”

I would say that if it did not originate with one of these 12, it should not be included.

And since only apostles were guaranteed inspiration, I prefer to rest on the scriptures, and not on the handing down of tradition from the apostles through uninspired men.

But, that’s just me.

So, the next logical question is: upon what authority do you base those determinations on?

If it is on your private interpretation, what if it conflicts with someone elses private interpretation? Are you right and he’s wrong? Who’s to say?

Is your interpretation true for you, and his true for him? Is not truth objective?

I ask these questions in all sincerity; I’d really like to know how you would answer.

Once you take the road of private interpretation, numerous unresolvable rabbit-trails are bound to pop up.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Fidelis:

So, the next logical question is: upon what authority do you base those determinations on?

If it is on your private interpretation, what if it conflicts with someone elses private interpretation? Are you right and he’s wrong? Who’s to say?

Is your interpretation true for you, and his true for him? Is not truth objective?

Once you take the road of private interpretation, numerous unresolvable rabbit-trails are bound to pop up.

And the proof of this is that there is one Catholic Church and tens of thousands of Protestant sects.

 

[TNT]

Matt14:

No, of course not. I was referring to the New Testament.

No. Early Christian writers attest that Mark wrote from Peter’s influence, and Luke wrote from Paul’s.

Ok, Who were they? Why do you depend on them? Where did they worship? etc,etc. Are we slipping into an “early christian writer” tradition?

Whoops, this thread is sliding into a Sola Scriptura debate.

 

[vern_humphrey]

TNT:

Ok, Who were they? Why do you depend on them? Where did they worship? etc,etc. Are we slipping into an “early christian writer” tradition?

Whoops, this thread is sliding into a Sola Scriptura debate.

The Apostolic Fathers are the second generation of Catholics – men who knew the Apostles personally and were taught by them. They include Clement I, Polycarp, the author(s) of the Didache, and so on. It’s pretty easy make a catalog of them and their writings.

In addition, there were Catholics who were a generation or more removed from the Apostles, but taught in the oral tradition they handed down.

 

[TNT]

jc91087:

How come Catholics pray to Saints?

Long ago we found out it WORKS!

What good is “partaking of the Divine Natue” if you can’t DO anything with it toward the suffering sinners, just as THE Divine Nature Himself does?

Acts Of Apostles 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that when Peter came, his shadow at the least, might overshadow any of them, and they might be delivered from their infirmities.

Yea, we still do that with the Saints too.

James 1:17 Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration.

Well, those Saints are one of those best gifts He gives to us.

4 Kings 13:21 And some that were burying a man, saw the rovers, and cast the body into the sepulchre of Eliseus. And when it had touched the bones of Eliseus, the man came to life, and stood upon his feet.

Yea, we still do stuff like that. We get similar results.

Hebrews 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

I suppose they are angels and Saints, so we make use of them. Remember angel=messenger, not just one way either.

They must in some way observe and hear us, since they are over OUR heads.

Wonder why Mary gave here answer to Gabriel, who took it to God’s Throne, instead of straight to God?
I know, she was already Catholic.

Catholics (& Eastern Orthodox) are a weak bunch, not strong like protestants. So, God knows we need the extra prayers of the Saints.
You just need to ask for prayers from fellow sinners. We need those AND prayers of the Holiest Ones…those that made it into heaven and converse with Christ and are Materially “partaking of the Divine nature”.

 

[Mathetes007]

jc91087:

How come Catholics pray to Saints?

Catholics pray to saints because that is the way that Christ desired it. He establshed a Church that was united to Him and through Him mystically united with one another (i.e. Romans 7:4; 12:5; 1 Cor. 6:19-20; 10:17; 12:12-27; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 2:16; 3:6; 4:1-16; 5:22-30; Colossians 1:18; 3:15; ).

Of this unity with Christ and each other, Paul says that “This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church” (Ephesians 5:32). He further adds, that his actions somehow contribute to the rest of the Body, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions” (Colossians 1:24).

For those that are “in Christ” (i.e. who are part of His Body), nothing can separate us from love. “For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39).

This is important to remember since Christ’s two great commandments stemmed from love to God and to one another (Mark 12:28-31; John 13:34; Romans 13:9; 1 John 3:11; 4:21; 2 John 1:5-6). These are the commandments that Christians must follow.

Now we must ask that if death cannot sever our love for God or one another, how do those who have passed on continue to love one another and us? We know that by worshipping God face to face they fulfill the first command of Jesus. But how is the second fulfilled?

We sumbit that believers in the afterlife are like the angels of God (Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:36). The angels, because of their love towards God, minister to those on earth (Hebrews 1:14). We have confirmation that the same is true of human spirits in heaven. Paul tells us that we on earth have come to “innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus…” (Hebrews 12:22-24).

John the Apostle states that God gives angels the ability to receive our prayers into their hands (Revelations 8:4). If our prayers are to be directed to God alone, why would God allow spirit creatures to even handle our private petitions? The most logical understanding of John’s vision is that angels are being prayed to intercede on our behalf. That is why the angels receive our prayers and then add something before presenting them before God’s throne (Revelation 8:3). It would make no sense for God to receive our prayers and then send them to the angels so that the angels can then send the prayers back to God. We see earlier in Revelation that human spirits also receive prayers (Revelation 5:8). This is how the elect show their love for those on earth by receiving prayers and presenting them before the throne of Christ and the Almighty.

Recall that Christ shares everything with His sheep. As He is Son, so are those who follow Him (Romans 8:14; Galatians 3:26); as He is royalty, so are those who follow Him (2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10; 3:11); as He is Judge, so are those who follow Him (1 Corinthians 6:2-3); as He is Priest, so are those who follow Him (1 Peter 2:5, 9); as He was glorified, so will be those who follow Him (2 Corinthians 3:18; Philippians 3:10-11, 20-21; Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2, 3); etc. It would follow that if He shares everything with His followers, including His kingly and priestly roles, He would also share His intercessory role.

Of course, Catholicism teaches that this is all done “in Christ.” In other words, the saints are not in competition with Christ as intercessors but only participate in a secondary and subordinate way. For in heaven, the elect have been elevated and seated with God but only through Christ (Ephesians 2:6).

In Him, with Him, and through Him everything is accomplished.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

…when praying to saints I am simply asking them to pray to God on my behalf. Saints of themselves can effect nothing apart from intercession to God. As I understand things, this is Catholic teaching.

Regards…Barbhttp://bestsmileys.com/waving/7.gif