Praying to saints

[jcrichton]

No God does not need what you call ’ buffering’. He wants it.

And of course we also know our Faith does not come from Scripture alone.

Hi!

…the thing that God requires is our Obedience… He set up things so that we exist in Him in dependency: first to God and then to mankind (‘Be one with one another in Me as I and the Father are One,’ and ‘forgive us as we forgive’); it is in this relationship that we are called to participate in the Body which composed of many members is One with One Head.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[johnnyc176]

Hi!

…the thing that God requires is our Obedience… He set up things so that we exist in Him in dependency: first to God and then to mankind (‘Be one with one another in Me as I and the Father are One,’ and ‘forgive us as we forgive’); it is in this relationship that we are called to participate in the Body which composed of many members is One with One Head.

Maran atha!

Angel

Yes I said He does not need it.

 

[Todd977]

I look upon praying to the saints as pretty much the same thing as when the disciples of Joppa went to Lydda and entreated St Peter to come to Joppa, hoping that he might somehow help Tabitha, who had recently died, and he did help her, praying and miraculously raising her from the dead through his faith in Jesus. The only difference is that, when St Peter was physically living in Lydda, the disciples had to physically go to distant Lydda to entreat him; now we simply pray to St Peter, who is near to us, living spiritually in heaven, and entreat him in the hope that he might somehow help us by his prayers and miracles worked through his faith in Jesus. (See Acts 9:36-43; Hebrews 12:22-24)

 

[godisgood77]

No God does not need what you call ’ buffering’. He wants it.

He wants it? How do you know that?

Christ taught us to pray by teaching us the our father. He taught us in some of his most explicit words… ‘no one comes to the father except through me.’ He does not rule out a secondary mediator, but h me certainly doesn’t call for it.

So I do not understand this idea that God ‘wants a buffer’ as you say. I do not know which authority to turn to that supports that idea- not Christ, not the bible or the fathers… please enlighten me…

 

[jcrichton]

Yes I said He does not need it.

Hi, Johnny!

…I was expanding, not contradicting… I thought that my first attempt was not clear enough… I try to take into account those who visit and may take away the wrong understanding… sorry to have taxed your patience.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

He wants it? How do you know that?

Christ taught us to pray by teaching us the our father. He taught us in some of his most explicit words… ‘no one comes to the father except through me.’ He does not rule out a secondary mediator, but h me certainly doesn’t call for it.

So I do not understand this idea that God ‘wants a buffer’ as you say. I do not know which authority to turn to that supports that idea- not Christ, not the bible or the fathers… please enlighten me…

Hi!

…since I introduced the term… here’s where I see it get started:

35 Jesus made a tour through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the Good News of the kingdom and curing all kinds of diseases and sickness. 36 And when he saw the crowds he felt sorry for them because they were harassed and dejected, like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples, ‘The harvest is rich but the labourers are few, so ask the Lord of the harvest to send labourers to his harvest’.

(St. Matthew 9:35-37)
We agree that Jesus is God, correct? Why would He need His Disciples to pray for assistance, couldn’t He simply Call more workers (Followers) on His own?

The idea of intercessory prayer did not develop from some future Church practice; Jesus Himself Called His Apostles to pray to the Father for the things that the Church needs. It is not because God does not know what the Church needs (St. Matthew 6:8), but because God wants the Church to be United:

20 I pray not only for these, but for those also who through their words will believe in me. 21 May they all be one. Father, may they be one in us, as you are in me and I am in you, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me.

(St. John 17:20-21)

This Unity (Dependency) is carried over even in our Responsibilities:

44 But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; 45 in this way you will be sons of your Father in heaven, for he causes his sun to rise on bad men as well as good, and his rain to fall on honest and dishonest men alike.

(St. Matthew 5:44-45)

12 And forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven those who are in debt to us. (St. Matthew 6:12)
…and Jesus’ Apostles understood this to be part of their Life of Worship:

1 My advice is that, first of all, there should be prayers offered for everyone – petitions, intercessions and thanksgiving – 2 and especially for kings and others in authority, so that we may be able to live religious and reverent lives in peace and quiet. 3 To do this is right, and will please God our saviour: 4 he wants everyone to be saved and reach full knowledge of the truth.

(2 Timothy 2:1-4)
Here’s where people get it wrong… some keep equating the religious experience (Worship) with: ‘Christ and me.’ The only time this formula works is when choosing Salvation:

1:12 But to all who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to all who believe in the name of him 13 who was born not out of human stock or urge of the flesh or will of man but of God himself.

3:13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven; and the Son of Man must be lifted up 14 as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, 15 so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.

(St. John 1:12-13; 3:13-15)
…in everything else, the Believer cannot stand alone:

25 and that there may not be disagreements inside the body, but that each part may be equally concerned for all the others. 26 If one part is hurt, all parts are hurt with it. If one part is given special honour, all parts enjoy it.

(1 Corinthians 12:1-31)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[johnnyc176]

Hi, Johnny!

…I was expanding, not contradicting… I thought that my first attempt was not clear enough… I try to take into account those who visit and may take away the wrong understanding… sorry to have taxed your patience.

Maran atha!

Angel

You did not. tax my patience lol. Just a little misunderstanding. I probably should have worded it…‘He wills it’ rather than ‘He wants it’. He wills it falls more in line with requiring obedience. So I think we are on the same page!

I like the way you explained it through Rev 8 and calling it a ‘structure’. After all Jesus founded a hierarchical Church.

Another thing in regards to praying to the Blessed Mother. In OT times the queen was the mother and when one wanted to make a request of the king they would first go to the mother.

 

[jcrichton]

You did not. tax my patience lol. Just a little misunderstanding. I probably should have worded it…‘He wills it’ rather than ‘He wants it’. He wills it falls more in line with requiring obedience. So I think we are on the same page!

I like the way you explained it through Rev 8 and calling it a ‘structure’. After all Jesus founded a hierarchical Church.

Another thing in regards to praying to the Blessed Mother. In OT times the queen was the mother and when one wanted to make a request of the king they would first go to the mother.

Hi, Johnny!

I concur–we are on the same page.

…and what is interesting about the “Structure” is that that it is as the Church has defined it: Church Militant, Church Penitent, and Church Triumphant… in Rev 8 we see this development as God Receives the Prayers of the Saints–while we must understand that this is a vision and that what is manifested is made in forms that the human mind can understand, the Structure Comes from God… when we reflect upon the Scriptures we find that Jesus did not leave much of a visual (Cephas, the leader or the Twelve, the Twelve, and the Promise of the other Paraclete that would Come to Unfold the Fullness of the Truth)… a simple infant Structure, that would Unfold as the Holy Spirit would make things Known.

Soon after we get a glimpse of a hierarchy that leads the Church with Christ as its head!

Maran atha!

 

[Usagi]

The best-known and most common prayers to the saints make it clear that what we are asking is for the saint to pray with and for us to God:

“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of death.” (from the Hail Mary)

“Therefore I ask Blessed Mary Ever-Virgin; all the angels and saints; and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.” (from the Penitential Prayer/Confiteor at Mass)

If the critics would listen to what we are actually saying, even in some of the most formalized and oldest prayers to the saints, there ought to be no misunderstanding.

 

[godisgood77]

The best-known and most common prayers to the saints make it clear that what we are asking is for the saint to pray with and for us to God:

“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of death.” (from the Hail Mary)

“Therefore I ask Blessed Mary Ever-Virgin; all the angels and saints; and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.” (from the Penitential Prayer/Confiteor at Mass)

If the critics would listen to what we are actually saying, even in some of the most formalized and oldest prayers to the saints, there ought to be no misunderstanding.

Asking the saints to pray for us is a great thing. My family always asks saints to pray with us to God.