Praying to saints?

[guardian1]

before you read my question, please bear in mind that i was raised a protestant and i am NOT here to attack your faith. i am merely trying to understand it. i know that you pray to the saints/mary because it’s supposed to help get your prayer answered. but i don’t understand why you don’t just pray to God/Jesus directly all the time. does God really need a go-between? can’t He hear our prayers on his own? another thing that bothers me about it is that when praying to the saints, you’re talking to dead people. i’m reminded of the story of king saul who went to the witch so she could conjer up the spirit of the prophet samuel so that he could seek samuel’s council. this as we all know is strictly forbidden. i’m not saying that praying to saints is a form of witchcraft, but it kinda reminds me of it. is there any place in the bible including the 7 (i believe) books canonized by the rcc that support/ or instruct christians to pray to saints?

 

[LilyM]

Hi. The only stupid question is the one you never ask

Our attitude to Mary and the Saints relies on two points:

1. The power of group prayer. Surely you must be familiar with the many Bible passages, especially in St Paul’s epistles, where we are all instructed to pray both with and for each other. Why would this be so if group prayer was pointless? What about the epistle of James where he says ‘the prayer of a righteous man avails much’.

Personally I don’t so much do it out of a belief that God will hear us better, I do it out of a belief that it strengthens US in our faith and our life when we pray together as a community. Rather like having formal and ceremonial baptisms, weddings, church services. God can at least sometimes work without such things. WE, on the other hand, benefit hugely from them.

1. We do not believe that those who die in Christ suffer from any loss of consciousness or mental powers, and aren’t in some sort of hibernation until the Second Coming. They are at least as capable mentally as they were in life.

The idea tha they aren’t is silly - didn’t Christ say to the good thief ‘this day you will be with me in Paradise?’. He opened heaven for us and we are free to enter, if fitted for it, immediately upon our death.

Those who die in Christ are just as active about God’s business, and about the care of their fellow members of Christ’s body on Earth, as they were in life. They are in fact more powerful, being already glorified and in heaven.

And Paul again talks about a ‘cloud of witnesses’ observing our lives - spectators as we run our race. Have you ever been at a sporting event? Are the spectators passive and unconcerned? Or are they instead cheering on and encouraging their heroes, and doing all in their power to ensure a win for their favourites? The difference being that the Saints CAN help with their prayers.

Read Revelations - John himself (the writer) speaks of heavenly beings offering the prayers of the saints on earth to God. This is what we do with our prayers to them - we ask them to offer our prayers to God for us, since they see him to his face. And even John, while still alive, was gifted in Revelations with a vision of all the peoples of Earth and could hear them all praising God. Those in heaven, who ‘know even as they are known’, surely can always see and hear what is going on on Earth!

As for King Saul - he tried to literally summon up Samuel’s ghost from for one thing, which Catholics never do, and would in fact find repellent and sinful. He used a medium (a witch, an ungodly person) for another, which is also a sinful thing to do for us. And he wanted to FORETELL the future and get information FROM the ghost for a third thing. We do none of these things.

 

[Della]

The teaching you are referring to is the Communion of Saints. The people of God are not divided by death, for death has no meaning for those who are in Christ Jesus. The faithful departed are not dead but alive in Christ, so we are not trying to communicate with ghosts or conjure up anyone, which is what those who practice the occult are trying to do. All we are doing is asking our living brothers and sisters who are in heaven to pray for us and aid us through the power of the Holy Spirit.

It is for our good that God allows those in heaven to hear us and aid us, not because he cannot or will not without their prayers. As LilyM pointed out, it is we who benefit from the prayers of others, both those still living on earth as well as those living in heaven. The only difference is that those living in heaven cannot pray for anything that is against God’s will because now they are with Christ for all eternity and can never have self interest or sinful motives for anything ever again.

 

[guardian1]

thanks, and sorry. i wasn’t tryingto accuse you guys of any occult practices, it just kinda reminds me of that

 

[Della]

thanks, and sorry. i wasn’t tryingto accuse you guys of any occult practices, it just kinda reminds me of that

You’re welcome, and think nothing of it. I didn’t take it that you were accusing us of occult practices. I merely wanted to explain that that isn’t what the Communion of Saints is about.

 

[Andruschak]

thanks, and sorry. i wasn’t tryingto accuse you guys of any occult practices, it just kinda reminds me of that

Coming from a Protestant background (as I have), you will probably have problems with the concept of Purgatory, the holy souls who comprise The Church Suffering. We of the Church Militant have the power to reduce their time of suffering, and when they get to heaven they will become our intercessors.

The Church Triumphant, The Church Suffering, and The Church Militant; together we are The Communion of Saints. As my signatures mentions, we pray for one another. Hope this helps

 

[VociMike]

No, God does not need go-betweens. However, He invites go-betweens. That is to say, He invites humans to join with Him in the work of Salvation. That is the critical part of this whole question.

Why does God use prophets and apostles and all believers to spread His word? He doesn’t need them.

Why does God use men and women to bring new human souls into being? He doesn’t need them.

Why does God use priests to forgive sins (I know you’ll reject that one, but consider it in the light I’m presenting it). He doesn’t need them.

Why does God seek your prayers, and the prayers of others for you, and your prayers for others? He doesn’t need them.

 

[bear06]

Here are some things that have the bible verses for which you are looking.
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

I’d always check the Catholic Answers library because there are some pretty concise answers there for you.

I just ran into someone a few nights ago who had the same misunderstandings. I asked them if they asked people to pray for them or others. Of course they said yes (there are very few religions that don’t!). Then they went on to tell me that they believed they just needed to go to Jesus. I then had to remind them that they don’t actually believe that because they ask other people to pray for them. As Lily and Della have said, it’s the same thing.

I don’t think that you’re accusing us of cult practices. It’s just a misunderstanding we run into a lot. We also don’t worship statues - another common misunderstanding. They are reminders of our loved ones just as a picture of one’s family would be. Statues aren’t bad. If they were, God would have never instructed the Israelites to build them. Only worshipping of them would be wrong and the Catholic Church doesn’t believe in that.

 

[Della]

We of the Church Militant have the power to reduce their time of suffering, and when they get to heaven they will become our intercessors.

Of course, the souls in Purgatory are already “in heaven” so to speak–just for the sake of clarity. They are saved but are in the process of being purged of all worldly attachments, and are paying the temporal punishment due to their sins.

Some of our Protestant brethren are under the impression that Purgatory is some kind of “second chance” at salvation–I just wanted to nip that idea in the bud for guardian1 and our lurkers and seekers. :tiphat:

 

[bear06]

LOL! There were 2 responses while I was typing mine. Didn’t mean to leave your good responses out!

 

[VociMike]

About your question does the bible support prayer to saints, it does. Take Revelation 5:

*8: And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
9: and they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10: and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.”
11: Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
12: saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!”
13: And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!"
14: And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped. *

Note a couple of things here:

1. In heaven it is possible to hear all the prayers of every creature in heaven and earth!!!
2. The prayers to God are represented as words spoken and heard.
3. There is also a completely different form of prayers, described as golden bowls of incense to be offered to God (Rev 8). So these are prayers, but they are not the prayers directly to God that we see in e.g. verse 12.

So what are these different prayers? They are the prayers of the saints on earth to those in heaven, who in turn offer them to God. It’s all right there.

 

[mommyaprilj]

I was taught that it’s a lot like asking your neighbor or mom to pray for you.

 

[YADA]

I won’t repeat the information in the responses to your question. They are ery clear, accurate and supported.

So now I am curious…how do you respond to the answers? Do the bible citations in support of prayer with our brethren [living as in still walking this earth and those whose journey have taken them beyond this life] touch your understanding in any way? How do you better understand [or not] the catholic understanding of prayer with the saints and Saints?

Does it still remind you of congering up the dead or demons, soothsayers etc.? Does it still see ‘unbiblical’ to you?

 

[guardian1]

yada, idon’t know if i really could say for sure. i guess you’re right. i was always taught that there is a great gulf separating the dead and the living.i had talked to my wife about that a whileago and she said that there is a gulf, but it separates heaven and hell, not the liing and the dead. so i was always wrong on that one. i guess it just seems “wierd” (for lack of better words) to pray to saints. i have heard stories about people doing that, i.e. a nun had cancer, she and the sisters prayed to pope JPII after he died and she was healed. i guess it’s just that i was always taught that all we need is jesus and we should pray to the father through jesus and that was enough. but the wierd thing is that if all it takes is to pray once, without anyone else praying for you, then why did we always ask others to pray for us also? the churches we attended all had prayer chains and everyone was on the list so we could get everyone at church to pray, and in doing so we were contradicting our own belief that God could (or would) take care of it with only one prayer. we were always trying to get as many people to pray as possible, almost like we were trying to hit God over the head with prayer and say “hey! we need help over here!”. i see where you are coming from now.

 

[Andruschak]

the churches we attended all had prayer chains and everyone was on the list so we could get everyone at church to pray, and in doing so we were contradicting our own belief that God could (or would) take care of it with only one prayer. we were always trying to get as many people to pray as possible, almost like we were trying to hit God over the head with prayer and say “hey! we need help over here!”. i see where you are coming from now.

And there you are! Just think of our praying to the Saints as one HUGE prayer chain. And remember that the Saints are quite happy to help anyone who asks, even non-Catholics.

 

[bear06]

yada, idon’t know if i really could say for sure. i guess you’re right. i was always taught that there is a great gulf separating the dead and the living.i had talked to my wife about that a whileago and she said that there is a gulf, but it separates heaven and hell, not the liing and the dead. so i was always wrong on that one. i guess it just seems “wierd” (for lack of better words) to pray to saints. i have heard stories about people doing that, i.e. a nun had cancer, she and the sisters prayed to pope JPII after he died and she was healed. i guess it’s just that i was always taught that all we need is jesus and we should pray to the father through jesus and that was enough. but the wierd thing is that if all it takes is to pray once, without anyone else praying for you, then why did we always ask others to pray for us also? the churches we attended all had prayer chains and everyone was on the list so we could get everyone at church to pray, and in doing so we were contradicting our own belief that God could (or would) take care of it with only one prayer. we were always trying to get as many people to pray as possible, almost like we were trying to hit God over the head with prayer and say “hey! we need help over here!”. i see where you are coming from now.

They prayed to JPII for intercession. I know some don’t believe Catholics are a bible based faith but it simply isn’t true. Why do we ask others to pray for us? Because the bible tells us so. This is a quote from the first link I suggested:

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

 

[guardian1]

so how exactly do you pray to a saint?can someone give me an example prayer?

 

[Rara_Avis]

Here is another thought to add to the above.

God is all merciful but He is also all just. He loves with the stern hand of a Father.

Mary and the Saints are all mercy. The Saints have been where we have been and Mary loves with the tenderness of a mother.

When we ask Mary, she pleads for her children. And God has told us - He will refuse His mother nothing. Like the Wedding Feast. Jesus was not prepared to provide more wine but did so simply because His mother asked.

We ask the Saints because they are already close to God. On earth we do this kind of thing all the time - when we want something from a boss or a parent or someone in authority - We approach someone who has an “in” just to get the results we want. Especially if we ourselves have been bad or not exactly living up to our expectations … we go to someone who looks a whole lot better than we do!

What I never really understood is why Protestants are so anxious to rejected this comfort. I love the thought of having a mother so perfect, so loving that she will ALWAYS help me. Alot of times people forget that we are here working out our salvation with fear and trembling before our Judge… but with Mary and the Saints there is none of that - there is just help!

 

[Rara_Avis]

so how exactly do you pray to a saint?can someone give me an example prayer?

There are absolutely TONS of prayers and Litanies that the Church provides for this - did you say that you are a convert? It is really aweful that your church/priest has not provided you with any or encouraged you to do this.

Here is an example of a Novena to St. Joseph (pray this for nine consecutive days)

Glorious St. Joseph, foster-father, and protector of Jesus Christ! To you I raise my heart and my hands to implore your powerful intercession. Please obtain for me from the kind Heart of Jesus the help and the graces necessary for my spiritual and temporal welfare. I ask particularly for the grace of a happy death and the special favor I now implore (name it).

Guardian of the Word Incarnate, I feel animated with confidence that your prayers in my behalf will be graciously heard before the throne of God.

V. O glorious St. Joseph, through the love you bear to Jesus Christ, and for the glory of His name,

R. Hear my prayers and obtain my petitions.

Amen

 

[LilyM]

The angelic salutation (Hail Mary) is probably the easiest and best-known prayer to a saint.

The entire first half is taken directly from Gospel quotations from Luke. The second half requests her intercession.

'Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you,
Blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.’