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TrueLight
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Oh I didn’t see this. Thank you Cat Herder.
edited to add: You really laid it out beautifully and logically. Some of us need a logical, intelligent argument. Thanks!
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TrueLight
Guest
Awesome! I am bookmarking this for serious study. Thank you.
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PatrickSebast
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The way you know sites like CARM are not reliable is that they don’t acknowledge the other sides true argument. On the subject of praying to saints neither the article nor the video actually mentions that Catholics are asking Saints, as LIVING members of the Church to be intercessors for us. It doesn’t mention that Catholics use other books or tradition to support their claims either, essentially it fails as an academic argument. When building an academic doctoral thesis it is essential that you take the arguments of any dissenting opinions seriously and throughly examine why they are wrong, misrepresenting the views of others will get your thesis quickly rejected and possibly have you removed from the program. If you are going to look for information on the internet and want to do so in a truly intellectual manner then you MUST learn to discern the difference between real well structured arguments by well educated individuals in the field and impassioned arguments made by people with preconceived notions.
The questions you need to ask of any piece of information (including professionally published books and news articles) if you desire to be an informed individual are as follows:
-What is their source for information?
-Does the author of this information have the credentials to understand their source?
-Are there well educated people in the field who would disagree with the ideas presented? If so why?
-Are the people with dissenting thoughts accurately and carefully represented by the author attacking them?
That is a very basic structure for understanding good information. For instance most people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job and that the towers could not have collapsed due to planes crashing into them are not architects and engineers. As an engineer myself I constantly see them make flawed claims and demonstrate no understanding of what the official explanation from NIST said. Most people don’t even know about the different grain structures and phases that can occur in steel or how temperature affect them, and yet for some reason they still feel they have enough authority to comment on how a steel building fell. This is the type of thing that people need to watch out for, just because someone can publish a book or make a fancy video that doesn’t mean they are right. It doesn’t even mean they have a clue what they are talking about.
The questions you need to ask of any piece of information (including professionally published books and news articles) if you desire to be an informed individual are as follows:
-What is their source for information?
-Does the author of this information have the credentials to understand their source?
-Are there well educated people in the field who would disagree with the ideas presented? If so why?
-Are the people with dissenting thoughts accurately and carefully represented by the author attacking them?
That is a very basic structure for understanding good information. For instance most people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job and that the towers could not have collapsed due to planes crashing into them are not architects and engineers. As an engineer myself I constantly see them make flawed claims and demonstrate no understanding of what the official explanation from NIST said. Most people don’t even know about the different grain structures and phases that can occur in steel or how temperature affect them, and yet for some reason they still feel they have enough authority to comment on how a steel building fell. This is the type of thing that people need to watch out for, just because someone can publish a book or make a fancy video that doesn’t mean they are right. It doesn’t even mean they have a clue what they are talking about.
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TrueLight
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It’s one thing to say that the saints are alive in heaven and can appear with the Son of God, who of course can summon them when he wants, and it’s another to say they can hear what is happening on the earth or lil ole me asking Saint so-and-so to intercede for me.
But I appreciate the reference to the transfiguration and some others posted some reading material that should be helpful.
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PatrickSebast
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I would like to mention to you now that Scripturecatholic is not the best resource in the world for Catholic doctrine. Most stuff they say is correct, some things they say are questionable, a few are flat out wrong. Not that it is a worthless resource, but it wasn’t crafted by the Church and sometimes applies bible verses that shouldn’t be applied.
The best resources for Catholic teaching are The Catechism, Cannon Law, and the Catholic Encyclopedia (all of which are freely available online).
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Della
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Della;7707237:
It doesn’t say one way or the other, that’s the point. Not everything we believe is explicitly stated in the Bible, even things most Protestants hold as true, such as the Trinity, the two natures of Christ, Christ’s full divinity, etc. These things were all hammered out in the early Church councils because there was opposition to these teachings by some (and in some cases by most). The Bible is only a part of Sacred Tradition. You need the whole of ST to understand many teachings of Christianity, not just the the Communion of Saints.
Try here: The Communion of Saints. There’s a lot of information to choose from there!
I wasn’t debating. I was explaining.
If I seemed snooty to you, I apologize.That was not my intention. My questions were meant to stimulate not challenge. And it’s just plain true that we cannot explain to others what we do not believe ourselves and not make it sound “off”. No bad intentions need be present. :tiphat:
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pablope
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TL…
From Matt 22: 30:** At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.**
Those in heaven have attributes of angels, as this verse says. Angels do God’s bidding, pray for us, intercede for us. So do the saints, being as angels, do the same.
I think references are from Rev 4 to Rev 8. This is where you can read the angel or elders offering incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
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TrueLight
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Thank you for clearing that up and for the link to the Communion of Saints!If I seemed snooty to you, I apologize.
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Cat_Herder
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Thanks :tiphat:
There is more on my profile page (click my name)
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wmscott
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I was not aware of this and I will take you at your word, do you know who is running this site and why they have not been corrected? also how does one know which site is good and which is off a bit?
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wmscott
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True Light, if I have misdirected you, I apologize.
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Link0126
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Yeah, I agree. I like scripture Catholic a lot esp. when you are just looking for some quick references. It is well organized and full of quotes and verses. It’s a good site, but sometimes you just have to look into it a little bit more. Sometimes, I’m like “nah, that’s not what that means”… he seems to read into some verses a little too much. But many are still accurate. Still a good resource to know about.
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PatrickSebast
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The only reason I know about scripture catholic is because it has been mentioned at this forum several times to have some errors in it, and the reason it hasn’t been corrected is that John Salza is simply a lay person with a rather simple internet site. The Church hasn’t really developed a great model for the regulation and monitoring of Catholic internet sites yet, and the intent of the site isn’t to mislead it is just that it is written by one fallible man who probably only has limited training.
As things are now you can pretty much only trust statements from Church officials and material published by the Church. The Church doesn’t really seem to have been well prepared for making use of new communications technologies, but I guess you can’t really blame them when the majority of the Clergy are in the older age spectrum and most individual parishes can’t even find someone to keep their website up to date.
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Della
Guest
I would just add that personal interpretation of Scripture is fine as long as it doesn’t contradict Church teaching. When someone interprets verses/passages farther than the Church would, it’s all right (not the best thing to do to make one’s case, perhaps), with the caveat that it be theologically sound. There’s a lot of symbolic language/imagery/types in the Bible, but sometimes people can get a bit carried away interpreting them. If not contradictory, no harm, no foul. Just not always convincing or helpful.
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Della
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I’m glad to have cleared the air, too.Thank you for clearing that up and for the link to the Communion of Saints!
The CCC online is a great resource. The search engine is quite precise, though, so be aware that you have to put in terms it will recognize. All the best to you! 
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