Praying to the saints

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lester
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Lester

Guest
Hello,

Had a discussion with my neighbor over the Easter break regarding praying to the saints. He’s saying that it’s non-Biblical. What are some clear, and usefull Bible verses that support our beliefs? He says that it’s just another term for communication with the dead which is forbidden in the Olt Testament.

Les
 
Hello,

Had a discussion with my neighbor over the Easter break regarding praying to the saints. He’s saying that it’s non-Biblical. What are some clear, and usefull Bible verses that support our beliefs? He says that it’s just another term for communication with the dead which is forbidden in the Olt Testament.

Les
Les, these might be helpful to you:

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

Also, check out the the following site for some excellent downloads on this and other topics:

biblechristiansociety.com/download
 
The charge of necromancy usually comes from the fundamentalist communities. I would first ask where “dead saint” is found in the Bible, then I would ask where in the Bible is the family of God separated into departments of earth and heaven. Or does Christ have two brides?

Eph. 3
14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,

If it’s wrong to pray to those in heaven, it’s just as wrong to pray for one another. Now THAT is unbilical! Is Jesus making a dichotomy in the Lord’s prayer, “…they will be done ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN…” or is Jesus making a unity?
Protestants who condemn prayers to saints have seldom seen such a prayer. It is God who is given the glory, not the saint. Show some examples. I like to show the prayer to St. Dympna, and the Prayer to St. Michael.
 
let me preface this by saying i do not have a theological problem with asking for intercession from the saints.

but i do want some opinions on a particular OT passage that i think fits into the discussion.
1 Samuel 28
Code:
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.
Code:
4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all the Israelites and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her." 
  "There is one in Endor," they said.
Code:
8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."
Code:
9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"
Code:
10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."
Code:
11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" 
  "Bring up Samuel," he said.
Code:
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
Code:
13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" 
  The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."
Code:
14 "What does he look like?" he asked. 
  "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. 
  Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
Code:
15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" 
  "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."
Code:
16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."
Code:
20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.
i think we can all agree that he prophet samuel is a saint (as all the OT prophets would be even though they are not defined as such). here we see saul attempting to communicate to a saint. now, i know he is using means that are contrary to how catholics as the saints for intercession, and i know that saul was wrong for dabbling in witchcraft; however, is his intent (to ask for help from a saint) a good one? how does it differ (if at all) from the practice of praying to saints?
 
let me preface this by saying i do not have a theological problem with asking for intercession from the saints.

but i do want some opinions on a particular OT passage that i think fits into the discussion.

i think we can all agree that he prophet samuel is a saint (as all the OT prophets would be even though they are not defined as such). here we see saul attempting to communicate to a saint. now, i know he is using means that are contrary to how catholics as the saints for intercession, and i know that saul was wrong for dabbling in witchcraft; however, is his intent (to ask for help from a saint) a good one? how does it differ (if at all) from the practice of praying to saints?
Quite simple. Saul was conjuring up a dead person to have his will be done, not trying to communicate with a saint for intercession. At the time, Samuel was not a saint in the understanding of saints being in Heaven. The gates of Heaven had yet to be opened.
In the passage note that God had turned his back on Saul because Saul had disobeyed God, so Saul tried to go to Samuel to get help in place of God. Notice that he didn’t ask Samuel to go to God and intercede for Saul…he asked Samuel to help him.
We don’t ask the saint(s) to do anything for us in place of God, rather we simply ask them go to God with us for whatever intention we have.
 
Quite simple. Saul was conjuring up a dead person to have his will be done, not trying to communicate with a saint for intercession. At the time, Samuel was not a saint in the understanding of saints being in Heaven. The gates of Heaven had yet to be opened.
In the passage note that God had turned his back on Saul because Saul had disobeyed God, so Saul tried to go to Samuel to get help in place of God. Notice that he didn’t ask Samuel to go to God and intercede for Saul…he asked Samuel to help him.
We don’t ask the saint(s) to do anything for us in place of God, rather we simply ask them go to God with us for whatever intention we have.
thanks. the reason i brought it up was that i felt the answer to it would help with the OP.
 
Psalm 103, verse 20:
Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.

David addresses the angels specifically, asking them to praise God.

Regarding the verse, two very prominent Protestants had this to day about the verse:

John Calvin in his commentary states that: “…the Psalmist chiefly addresses the angels…”

Adam Clarke in his commentary states that: “…He invites all the creatures of God to praise him…”

I posted on this a while back, the thread is found here (you may find it useful)
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=214394

There are other places in the Bible where a being other than God is addressed in prayer, but I haven’t done enough homework on them yet to provide an opinion on the verses.
 
Christ is Lord of the living … 1.) Old Testament Prophets, Patriarchs, certain Kings (David for sure) & 2.) New Testament Age Supersaints [Apostles, martyrs, truely holy men/women , etc.]

It would appear all these plus the Angels are potentially available to lend aid via intercession for us.

However, since our High Priest and Saviour Christ prays for us/His Church & also receives our prayers to the Father … I always prefer to pray to Jesus & occasionally to Mary (more to give her the honor / veneration that the Gospels say she deserves).

Jesus knows His sheep individually by name and desires daily confessions and worship/praise from us. Jesus is our King … why settle for an intermediary, when the King will always hear our sincere prayer in HIs name.
 
We don’t ask the saint(s) to do anything for us in place of God, rather we simply ask them go to God with us for whatever intention we have.
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

We do, however, ask the Saints to do things for us in cooperation with God. Angles and Saints are both active in the service of God and His Kingdom. Many prayers to Saints (and Angels if one considers them separately) ask for direct assistance as well as prayers. The Saints are authorized to do this work for God, as a reward or their merits:

His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’ (Matthew (NAB) 25:21.)

Here is an example, purportedly written by Pope Leo XIII:

To thee, O blessed Joseph, do we come in our tribulation, and having implored the help of thy most holy Spouse, we confidently invoke thy patronage also. Through that charity which bound thee to the immaculate Virgin Mother of God and through the paternal love with which thou embraced the Child Jesus, we humbly beg thee to graciously regard the inheritance which Jesus Christ has purchased by his Blood, and with thy power and strength to aid us in our necessities.

O most watchful Guardian of the Holy Family, defend the chosen children of Jesus Christ; O most loving father, ward off from us every contagion of error and corrupting influence; O our most mighty protector, be propitious to us and from heaven assist us in our struggle with the power of darkness; and, as once thou rescued the Child Jesus from deadly peril, so now protect God’s Holy Church from the snares of the enemy and from all adversity; shield, too, each one of us by thy constant protection, so that, supported by thy example and thy aid, we may be able to live piously, to die holy, and to obtain eternal happiness in heaven. Amen.

(See, preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Ioseph/AdTe.html.)

This is also clear in the prayer to one’s guardian angel, as it appears in the present Handbook of Indulgencies:

Angel sent by God to guide me,
be my light and walk beside me;
Be my guardian and protect me;
On the baths of life direct me.

(Indulgenced Grant No. 8. See also, preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Basics/AngeleDei.html which says, in part: As best can be determined, this prayer is an 11th/12th century interpolation of a prayer composed by Reginald of Canterbury, who died sometime after 1109. This prayer is from Reginald’s Life of St. Malchus (d. c 390), a famous hermit who was a friend of St. Jerome (c 341-420).)

Hail holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To you we cry, the children of Eve; to you we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this land of exile. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, your eyes of mercy toward us; lead us home at last and show us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus: O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

(Indulgenced Grant No. 51. See also, preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/BVM/SalveRegina.html, which says, in part: Today this prayer is one of the final Marian Antiphons that conclude Compline in the Divine Office and it is also used in conjunction with the Rosary. A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful who devoutly recite this prayer.)

One should not forget that we have work to do, even in the rest of the Kingdom; it is life, not death into which we are reborn.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
Why “settle for an intermediary”, you ask?

Why denigrate the channels of grace that Jesus has worked so hard to provide for us? Why pretend that the friends He has chosen to honor are somehow less important than He has chosen for them to be?

“I like praying to Jesus most of all” is an acceptable answer. Saying that it’s better is an insult to the Body of Christ. You are acting as if God doesn’t hear as well through the saints.

Maybe I’m being too harsh. But really, it would be more direct and thus “better” to ignore all trashcans and only take your trash straight to the dump. You can do it whenever you want. But it’s a bit weird only to do that, when there’s already plenty of trashmen and trash trucks ready and willing to help you.

No doubt the saints’ heaven is just as joyful if they are ignored. But Jesus wanted to give us the joy of praying for each other, and acting as instruments of God’s grace. We love it when He lets us do services for others, and His grace works through us onto them. Why would we want to stop the saints from having such perfect joy?
 
The saints are very important persons chosen by God in a very special manner. God does this in order to be followed by other humans especially for their spiritual life. I’ll give you an example. Before driving to office, I always pray to St. Michael, Gabriel, and Rafael. I ask them to guide me during my way to office. One day, I forgot to pray for, I almost got a serious accident. It is my sharing concerning “praying to the saints”. I come to conclude that praying to the saints is still valid until today. Oy, yah, I always pray to my Baptism saint i.e. Justinus (Justin).

Justinus from Jakarta, Indonesia.
 
We are the children of the LIVING God and saints while living in flesh were granted graces of charity that the book of Acts best shows.However,its our earthly flesh mind that limits power of all hosts of heaven NOT Father.
 
Thanks for the answers everyone. I do agree that God is the God of the living. When we pray to the saints, how do we know that they are living? After all, we dont know who goes to heaven do we? Thanks!

Les
 
Thanks for the answers everyone. I do agree that God is the God of the living. When we pray to the saints, how do we know that they are living? After all, we dont know who goes to heaven do we? Thanks!

Les
Les, all who have been incorporated into Christ through Baptism into His Death and Resurrection and have remained in Him by fidelity to His grace are alive in Him, whether they be presently walking on earth or enjoying the Beatific Vision of Heaven (or being prepared for the Beatific Vision in Purgatory). We don’t know all who are in heaven, but we do know by the authority of Christ’s Church some of those who are there by fact of the Church “raising to the altar” various and many Saints and Blessed through the ages.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top