praying to virgin mary and the saints

[Brother2]

Well praying to mary and the saints. How do you know that Mary and the Saints are alive in heaven?? They are mostly Dead and Sleeping in the Grave until the Second Coming of Lord Jesus Christ.

To say they are alive is going into Spiritualism and the Occult! The Bible talks clearly of the Sleep of the Dead…the Breath or spirit returns to God at Death…God breathed into Adam’s nostrils the Breath of Life and Man became a living soul…a dead soul is dead until the Ressurection…

There are a few Saints in heaven but most of them are Dead! This life after death thing is the Devil’s deception brought in during the time of apostasy of the christian church under Rome.
Spiritualism and the Occult teach that we do not die we just continue to live on in the spirit world or go to heaven. We only go to heaven after the Judgment at the Second Coming of Lord Jesus.

Praise God there is Eternal Life for those who believe in Lord Jesus but only God is Eternal…human beings die!!! Cease to exist.

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

 

[JonNC]

Well praying to mary and the saints. How do you know that Mary and the Saints are alive in heaven?? They are mostly Dead and Sleeping in the Grave until the Second Coming of Lord Jesus Christ.

To say they are alive is going into Spiritualism and the Occult! The Bible talks clearly of the Sleep of the Dead…the Breath or spirit returns to God at Death…God breathed into Adam’s nostrils the Breath of Life and Man became a living soul…a dead soul is dead until the Ressurection…

There are a few Saints in heaven but most of them are Dead! This life after death thing is the Devil’s deception brought in during the time of apostasy of the christian church under Rome.
Spiritualism and the Occult teach that we do not die we just continue to live on in the spirit world or go to heaven. We only go to heaven after the Judgment at the Second Coming of Lord Jesus.

Praise God there is Eternal Life for those who believe in Lord Jesus but only God is Eternal…human beings die!!! Cease to exist.

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

Just speaking for me, Michael, the appearance of Moses at the Transfiguration puts to rest any inclination to consider soul sleep.

Jon

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman you clearly did not finish reading what i wrote because in my writing i wrote that its ok to have people pray for you/over you… so i dunno what your talking about as far as John 20:21-23 I dont see what you mean. Clearly Jesus is referring to the idea of a person sinning against you and you forgive them then they are forgiven and if you retain the sins of any they are retained…

WRONG.
**Jesus told them, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." **
***And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. *Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”****Only TWO times in ALL of Scripture does Gosd breathe on man. First, when he breathed life into Adam and here, when he gives the Apostles the power to forgive sins.**You and I don’t have the power to forgive sins. We have the OBLIGATION to forgive those wo do wrong against us in order for ourselves to ever be forgiven. You don’t have the power to forgive somebody who sins against me or anybody else.

Matt 6:12
2 Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors

That is what is required of us in order for us to be forgiven.

Matt 12:31
And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

**Every major Theologian - Protestant AND Catholic agrees that this is referring to final impenitence.

2 Cor 2:10
If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven-if there was anything to forgive-I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake,
again forgiving people for what they have done to them

Here - Paul is referring to the Sacrament of Confession that Jesus conferred on the Apostles. HE (Paul) has forgiven in the sight of Christ for their sake.

Matt 6:14-15
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins
I think John 20:21-23 elaborates well on Matt 6:14,15 dont you?

Again - this is what is required of us in order for us to be forgiven.

 

[Brother2]

Just speaking for me, Michael, the appearance of Moses at the Transfiguration puts to rest any inclination to consider soul sleep.

Jon

Ha Correct jonNC I did say there are a few Saints in Heaven…Elijah went to heaven in a chariot of fire, Moses was dead and buried but was ressurected because he was God’s friend, Book of Jude talks about the Lord disputing with the Devil about Moses; Enoch walked into heaven; then when Lord Jesus rose from the grave a number of the Saints also came out of the grave and appeared to many and went to Heaven with our Lord.

But the rest of us ‘Saints’ die and are dead, we cease to exist until the ressurection…

I respect your beliefs even if I disagree with some of them.

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

I still cannot get my head around the images thing, Commandment definitely says thou shalt make no graven images in the likeness of anything in the heavens above or the earth beneath?? Surely images of Lord Jesus, Mary and the Saints come under that heading…and thou shalt not bow down to them…seems so iffy to me…though I agree they look nice and can concentrate the mind during worship…

 

[twopekinguys]

Just speaking for me, Michael, the appearance of Moses at the Transfiguration puts to rest any inclination to consider soul sleep.

Jon

Excellent response. We might also mention the good thief that was being crucified with Jesus, and him telling the thief…Today, you will be with me in paradise

 

[Brother2]

WRONG.
Jesus told them, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
***And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. ***Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."Only TWO times in ALL of Scripture does Gosd breathe on man. First, when he breathed life into Adam and here, when he gives the Apostles the power to forgive sins.You and I don’t have the power to forgive sins. We have the OBLIGATION to forgive those wo do wrong against us in order for ourselves to ever be forgiven. You don’t have the power to forgive somebody who sins against me or anybody else.
That is what is required of us in order for us to be forgiven.

***Every ***major Theologian - Protestant AND Catholic agrees that this is referring to final impenitence.

Here - Paul is referring to the Sacrament of Confession that Jesus conferred on the Apostles. HE (Paul) has forgiven in the sight of Christ for their sake.

Again - this is what is required of us in order for us to be forgiven.

Wow what a list…I totally agree, we have to forgive others or we will not be forgiven…very true…

However, Lord Jesus gave the Christian Church the power to confirm a person on the way to heaven and to put out of the church those who have lost their way or whatever…however, what happens then…we try and win them back into the church. To forgive sins, of course, I can forgive sins too against me…but we don’t need a Priest to forgive us, it is Lord Jesus who forgives us…no harm in having a priest present of course…

I respect your beliefs even if I don’t agree with all of them…

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

 

[ibetrippin07]

Well praying to mary and the saints. How do you know that Mary and the Saints are alive in heaven?? They are mostly Dead and Sleeping in the Grave until the Second Coming of Lord Jesus Christ.

To say they are alive is going into Spiritualism and the Occult! The Bible talks clearly of the Sleep of the Dead…the Breath or spirit returns to God at Death…God breathed into Adam’s nostrils the Breath of Life and Man became a living soul…a dead soul is dead until the Ressurection…

There are a few Saints in heaven but most of them are Dead! This life after death thing is the Devil’s deception brought in during the time of apostasy of the christian church under Rome.
Spiritualism and the Occult teach that we do not die we just continue to live on in the spirit world or go to heaven. We only go to heaven after the Judgment at the Second Coming of Lord Jesus.

Praise God there is Eternal Life for those who believe in Lord Jesus but only God is Eternal…human beings die!!! Cease to exist.

Shalom. May God bless all here. Michael.

no disrespect to you m8 but the bible destroys the idea of soul sleep. ill go over that in another topic but not this one…

 

[ibetrippin07]

Elvisman, you said “Only TWO times in ALL of Scripture does Gosd breathe on man. First, when he breathed life into Adam and here, when he gives the Apostles the power to forgive sins.You and I don’t have the power to forgive sins. We have the OBLIGATION to forgive those wo do wrong against us in order for ourselves to ever be forgiven. You don’t have the power to forgive somebody who sins against me or anybody else.”
I gave supporting scriptures to my point of view on the scripture where are yours? why should i bother arguing to you or any Christian without more scriptural proof…
You are correct in that we can forgive others who transgress us and also we as men here on the ground living and breathing can pray for other people to come to Christ but the person themselves has to repent themselves in THEIR OWN HEART. you are right we dont have the power to forgive sins that are against other people but if someone transgress against you then if you forgive them they are forgiven just as you sin (transgress against God) only God can forgive that.
“Here - Paul is referring to the Sacrament of Confession that Jesus conferred on the Apostles. HE (Paul) has forgiven in the sight of Christ for their sake.”
yea i know this, because if what you retain that men sin against you then it will be retained… if some guy comes up to you and calls you a nasty name or transgresses against you, they will not be forgiven until you yourself forgive them.
you rely on one scripture m8 good luck with that, i however put up several to support my interpretation.

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman, you said "Only TWO times in ALL of Scripture does Gosd breathe on man. First, when he breathed life into Adam and here, when he gives the Apostles the power to forgive sins.You and I don’t have the power to forgive sins. We have the OBLIGATION to forgive those wo do wrong against us in order for ourselves to ever be forgiven. You don’t have the power to forgive somebody who sins against me or anybody else."
I gave supporting scriptures to my point of view on the scripture where are yours? why should i bother arguing to you or any Christian without more scriptural proof…

I used the Scriptures YOU provided. Go back and read the post. I was showing you that you are misinterpreting the very Scriptures you provided to make your point.
I’ll throw in 3 more: Matt. 16-15-19, Matt. 18. 15-18, John 16:12-15
These all show the AUTHORITY that Jesus gave the Church that he didn’t give YOU or I.

You are correct in that we can forgive others who transgress us and also we as men here on the ground living and breathing can pray for other people to come to Christ but the person themselves has to repent themselves in THEIR OWN HEART. you are right we dont have the power to forgive sins that are against other people but if someone transgress against you then if you forgive them they are forgiven just as you sin (transgress against God) only God can forgive that.
"Here - Paul is referring to the Sacrament of Confession that Jesus conferred on the Apostles. HE (Paul) has forgiven in the sight of Christ for their sake."
yea i know this, because if what you retain that men sin against you then it will be retained… if some guy comes up to you and calls you a nasty name or transgresses against you, they will not be forgiven until you yourself forgive them.

This is TOTALLY false. My forgiveness from God DOESN’T depend on you - if you refuse to forgive me.

Paul, on the other hand was forgiving people that didn’t sin against him.**
He was exercising his priestly gift that was conferred upon him by Jesus and the Apostles.

 

[elvisman]

Wow what a list…I totally agree, we have to forgive others or we will not be forgiven…very true…

However, Lord Jesus gave the Christian Church the power to confirm a person on the way to heaven and to put out of the church those who have lost their way or whatever…however, what happens then…we try and win them back into the church. To forgive sins, of course, I can forgive sins too against me…but we don’t need a Priest to forgive us, it is Lord Jesus who forgives us…no harm in having a priest present of course…

Then you reject the Word of God.

 

[rinnie]

You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments

How can you read this and still pray to a saint/make statutes of Mary and pray to her? was it not anymore clear in the OT whenever the jews made themselves an idol or prayed to something other than God, they were punished severely. Technically speaking, if Christ rose and is in Heaven, mary died and is in heaven and the apostles died and went to heaven then why ignore this “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above” ???
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
1 Tim 2:5. IF you dont belive this scripture is relevant to the idea of praying to anything else for intercession besides Jesus then what was it doing there?

Excuse me. But your other friend could not answer my question maybe you can. Can you explain to me why GOD COMMANDED to make angels. Ex. 25:18-20. I asked this question earlier and it was totally ignored. So maybe you can answer it.

Now if we are going to condemn lets all go to hell together. Many and I mean MANY PROTESTANT Church’s have a three dimensional nativity scene at Christmas time. Please do not tell me you don’t I have seen them. And if we Catholics have to PROVE our point all we have to do is visit every protestant church we see and take pictures. But this is not necessary because protestants know its true.

So now we are in the same boat, lets at least be measured by the same rule. So please do not accuse Catholic’s of something you yourself do. My husband belonged to a protestant church and there is a picture of Jesus in the church? Whats up with that.

Because there is no idolatry going on in these situations. God FORBIDS the WORSHIP of images as Gods. He does not ban the making of images. You guys better go back and read the bible, and then check out your own church. THen you can throw stones. Did you ever watch a religious movie, look at a painting of Jesus, Then if you did you are doing the same thing as you accuse us of. SO it looks to me like we are all going to hell then. According to your teaching.

You better wake up and watch the stones you are throwing. God never forbid the making of religious images. He forbided the worshiping of them. You tell me is a Statue of Jesus Christ a false image? When you see a Statue of Jesus Christ do you deny that he is the Son of GOd? Well sorry we don’t. Maybe you deny Jesus I don’t know. But if you don’t then how can you say that a statue of him is a false image? Did Jesus Christ not reveal himself as the image of Man. And did the Blessed Mother not reveal herself as a Women? Now you answer my questions. Do you believe that the Blessed Mother was a women and Jesus Christ as a Man. When a Catholic prays in front of a Statue they know who they are praying to GOD UP ABOVE. They know that statue is a reminder and not God himself. That is indeed what you are accusing us of!

 

[elvisman]

You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
How can you read this and still pray to a saint/make statutes of Mary and pray to her? was it not anymore clear in the OT whenever the jews made themselves an idol or prayed to something other than God, they were punished severely. Technically speaking, if Christ rose and is in Heaven, mary died and is in heaven and the apostles died and went to heaven then why ignore this “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above” ???

Apparently, you just don’t know the Scriptures - or plain English for that matter. What does God preface the Commandment not to make graven images with? He says:
"You shall have no other gods before me."
THOSE are the graven images he was talking about. The Israelites had just come out of Egypt and were heavily influenced by their false gods. That’s where they got the idea to make a golden calf in the desert.

God himself later commands them to make graven images - a bronze serpent on a pole to cure them (Numbers 21:8-9) and 2 golden cherubim on top of the Ark (Ex. 25:18-20). Did they worship them? NO.
**
The pictures of your loved ones in your wallet and on your walls that you look lovingly upon are “graven images”. Are they gods? Do you worship them?**
Neither do we.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
1 Tim 2:5. IF you dont belive this scripture is relevant to the idea of praying to anything else for intercession besides Jesus then what was it doing there?

As for 1 Tim. 2:5 - you have no idea what this verse means. Let me educate you.
Jesus IS the one mediator between God and man because he is the ONLY sacrifice whose blood could wash away the sins of the world. This DOESN’T mean thet we aren’t supposed to pray for one another and ask for prayers (James 5:16).

 

[Bob4BVM]

Gosh folks, this thread has really heated up ! When you know the truth, it’s good to share it. But let’s above all be charitable here.
Getting back to the original topic, I thought you might be interested in what Martin Luther had to say about the Blessed Virgin Mary:

“She, the lady above Heaven and earth, must have a heart so humble, that she would have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes or preparing a bath for St. John the Baptist, like a servant girl. What humility. Surely it would have been more just to arrange for her a golden coach, pulled by 4000 horses. And to cry and proclaim as the carriage proceeded, here passes the woman who was raised above the whole human race. She was not filled with pride by this praise, this immense praise.” —Martin Luther

“No woman is like unto thee, thou art more than an empress or a queen. Blessed above all nobility, wisdom, or saintliness.”
—Martin Luther

Interesting that Luther wrote these comments about Mary, not while he was a Catholic, but years after he left the Church, shortly before his death in 1546. If you really want a shocker you might look up what Luther had to say about the real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist …Seems a bit of revisionism has been going on by his followers since he left the earthly scene.

+Peace,
Bob

---

“…I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament… There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves upon earth…” J.R.R. Tolkien

---

 

[Jon_S]

Gosh folks, this thread has really heated up ! When you know the truth, it’s good to share it. But let’s above all be charitable here.

Amen, brother.

 

[JonNC]

Gosh folks, this thread has really heated up ! When you know the truth, it’s good to share it. But let’s above all be charitable here.
Getting back to the original topic, I thought you might be interested in what Martin Luther had to say about the Blessed Virgin Mary:

“She, the lady above Heaven and earth, must have a heart so humble, that she would have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes or preparing a bath for St. John the Baptist, like a servant girl. What humility. Surely it would have been more just to arrange for her a golden coach, pulled by 4000 horses. And to cry and proclaim as the carriage proceeded, here passes the woman who was raised above the whole human race. She was not filled with pride by this praise, this immense praise.” —Martin Luther

“No woman is like unto thee, thou art more than an empress or a queen. Blessed above all nobility, wisdom, or saintliness.”
—Martin Luther

Interesting that Luther wrote these comments about Mary, not while he was a Catholic, but years after he left the Church, shortly before his death in 1546. If you really want a shocker you might look up what Luther had to say about the real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist …Seems a bit of revisionism has been going on by his followers since he left the earthly scene.
+Peace,
Bob

Good post, Bob.
On the Euhcarist, Lutherans have remained quite steadfast in affirming the real presence. We have, though, been somewhat lax in our reverence, piety, and regularity.
Luther would have been outraged in these areas, but assured as we seem to be recovering some of the beautiful traditions we allowed to slip.
The real revisionism, as you call it, might be in Lutheran views of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I would say the difference might be that the (Lutheran) teaching on the Eucharist is an article of faith, mariology is not. While intercessory prayer has not been part of our tradition since Augsburg, the Lutheran tradition has always had a quiet respect and honor, and sadly sometimes forgetfulness, regarding the BVM. I think that is slowly changing.

Jon

 

[elvisman]

Gosh folks, this thread has really heated up ! When you know the truth, it’s good to share it. But let’s above all be charitable here.
Getting back to the original topic, I thought you might be interested in what Martin Luther had to say about the Blessed Virgin Mary:

“She, the lady above Heaven and earth, must have a heart so humble, that she would have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes or preparing a bath for St. John the Baptist, like a servant girl. What humility. Surely it would have been more just to arrange for her a golden coach, pulled by 4000 horses. And to cry and proclaim as the carriage proceeded, here passes the woman who was raised above the whole human race. She was not filled with pride by this praise, this immense praise.” —Martin Luther

“No woman is like unto thee, thou art more than an empress or a queen. Blessed above all nobility, wisdom, or saintliness.”
—Martin Luther

Interesting that Luther wrote these comments about Mary, not while he was a Catholic, but years after he left the Church, shortly before his death in 1546. If you really want a shocker you might look up what Luther had to say about the real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist …Seems a bit of revisionism has been going on by his followers since he left the earthly scene.

+Peace,
Bob

---

“…I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament… There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves upon earth…” J.R.R. Tolkien

---

**I’m trying to be charitable but I have very little patience for people who tell me that we Catholics worship statues and idols. **
That is patently false and is an outright lie.

 

[Bob4BVM]

Apparently, you just don’t know the Scriptures - or plain English for that matter. What does God preface the Commandment not to make graven images with? He says:
"You shall have no other gods before me."
THOSE are the graven images he was talking about. The Israelites had just come out of Egypt and were heavily influenced by their false gods. That’s where they got the idea to make a golden calf in the desert.

**God himself later commands them to make graven images - a bronze serpent on a pole to cure them (Numbers 21:8-9) and 2 golden cherubim on top of the Ark (Ex. 25:18-20). Did they worship them? NO.
**
The pictures of your loved ones in your wallet and on your walls that you look lovingly upon are "graven images". Are they gods? Do you worship them?
Neither do we.

As for 1 Tim. 2:5 - you have no idea what this verse means. Let me educate you.
Jesus IS the one mediator between God and man because he is the ONLY sacrifice whose blood could wash away the sins of the world. This DOESN’T mean thet we aren’t supposed to pray for one another and ask for prayers (James 5:16).

Elvisman, you are cookin’ ! Keep the focus.
Be confident in your faith. You don’t have to prove it to the world, but my hat’s off to you for tryin’ . I wish I could explain it as clearly as you do (and also type faster ! ).

Remember that as Catholics, we can be quite comfortable with every passage of the Bible, without exception, as long as they are taken in the context of the situation and telling. We don’t have to try to squirm around anything in there. When I was Protestant, it was a hundred interpretations, to make it fit what the pastor said or thought. (like, heaven help us when our bible studies got to Jn 6 !!! )
What a comfort to finally be in a place where the theology directly matches ALL of scripture, especially the Gospels, Christ’s own words !

When I see the deep misunderstandings some of our brothers have, my heart just aches for them. (Like Brother2’s comment: “only God is Eternal…human beings die!!! Cease to exist…”) Yikes !!! I too want them to know the truth. Our duty as Christians is to always seek the Truth, and when we find it, to live by it.

But, alas, it takes an open (“honest-to-thyself”) heart before one can even begin to glimpse the truths held by the RCC. …I know this from my own journey (better described as an odyssey ! ) into the Roman Catholic Church. To my great amazement, I finally learned this:
That even MY FAITH ITSELF is not about me. It is about God’s plan for me.

+Peace
Bob

---

“…I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament… There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves upon earth…” J.R.R. Tolkien

---

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman, you are cookin’ ! Keep the focus.
Be confident in your faith. You don’t have to prove it to the world, but my hat’s off to you for tryin’ . I wish I could explain it as clearly as you do (and also type faster ! ).

Remember that as Catholics, we can be quite comfortable with every passage of the Bible, without exception, as long as they are taken in the context of the situation and telling. We don’t have to try to squirm around anything in there. When I was Protestant, it was a hundred interpretations, to make it fit what the pastor said or thought. (like, heaven help us when our bible studies got to Jn 6 !!! )
What a comfort to finally be in a place where the theology directly matches ALL of scripture, especially the Gospels, Christ’s own words !

When I see the deep misunderstandings some of our brothers have, my heart just aches for them. (Like Brother2’s comment: “only God is Eternal…human beings die!!! Cease to exist…”) Yikes !!! I too want them to know the truth. Our duty as Christians is to always seek the Truth, and when we find it, to live by it.

But, alas, it takes an open (“honest-to-thyself”) heart before one can even begin to glimpse the truths held by the RCC. …I know this from my own journey (better described as an odyssey ! ) into the Roman Catholic Church. To my great amazement, I finally learned this:
That even MY FAITH ITSELF is not about me. It is about God’s plan for me.

+Peace
Bob

---

“…I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament… There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves upon earth…” J.R.R. Tolkien

---

Right on, Brother.

 

[Bob4BVM]

Good post, Bob.
On the Euhcarist, Lutherans have remained quite steadfast in affirming the real presence. We have, though, been somewhat lax in our reverence, piety, and regularity.
Luther would have been outraged in these areas, but assured as we seem to be recovering some of the beautiful traditions we allowed to slip.
The real revisionism, as you call it, might be in Lutheran views of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I would say the difference might be that the (Lutheran) teaching on the Eucharist is an article of faith, mariology is not. While intercessory prayer has not been part of our tradition since Augsburg, the Lutheran tradition has always had a quiet respect and honor, and sadly sometimes forgetfulness, regarding the BVM. I think that is slowly changing.

Jon

Sorry Jon, I did not mean to generalize, but I see that I did. Yes, the many Lutherans I know generally have a great respect for the Eucharist. (Not sure about where the LCMS stands on this, I’ve have some of them challenge me on it).

You have to forgive (whoops, better be careful, I see that is another hot topic here ! me if I get a little fired up over both the Eucharist and Our Lady. The combination of both has changed my life drastically over the past few years.

A healthy devotion (NOT worship ! ) to the BVM is encouraged by the RCC, but is certainly not a requirement. For me, Mary was the last brick in the wall of my fully accepting everything in the RCC. I guess I respected her , but I was always uneasy when they mentioned her in a Mass or something, and hearing the Rosary said kind of bugged me, as well.
A series of events in my life changed all that a few years ago, and once the last of the wall finally went down for me, it’s been a landslide of grace in my life. To think I had no idea… to think that I used to think I knew what freedom was. She has led me to her Son in a way I could never have imagined, let alone accomplished on my own. I am a living example of what intercessory prayers of Mary can do. When I think about it I still have to shake my head in amazement.

It is my hope that all Christians, all people of faith for that matter, might someday recognize her as the Mother of us all, given to us by Jesus at Calvary.

I wish you the Peace of Christ , Jon. Thanks for your patience.

 

[rinnie]

I would hope we never look at heating things up. I just think we as Catholic’s need to defend our faith. Then when we do it makes us look, many many words have been said, arrogant etc. But to be honest and I think we have to this thread started out pretty heated from the get go.

I mean we are accused of some pretty horrible things. We are accused of worshiping false gods. Lets face it. But when we show scripture, and show that protestants do just the same we never get a response. That I wonder why? Why has not one protestant who accused us of this answered my post. I asked two of them now.

Thats pretty frustrating I must say. But the I guess I knew when I asked it to be perfectly honest I knew they would not respond. Why? Because they can’t. That is what happens when you have the truth on your side, you get ignored. Or my favorite is you never get your question answered just one piece of scripture to another that never answers the question.

But I would love to have my question answered by either of the people I asked or anyone who accuses us of this.

I showed my scripture showing where God indeed COMMANDED the making of statues.

How about the O.T. when God commanded the statue of the fiery serpent. That was a statue you know. Do you think those people thought that statue was God when they looked at it and were cured? Are you saying God asked those people to worship that statue and a false God. I think not the statue was the same then as it was then a reminder of God. Sorry makes no sense to me. What about 1 Chr. 28:18-19 Davids plan for the temple. Lots of statues of angels in it. How about it Ezekiel 41:17-18 describes graven images in the temple he was shown in a vision. Again when you accuse us of this, you are accusing more than the Catholic Church. You are going back to the beginning of time.