Pre-1955 Holy Week Permission Granted

[FontgombaultMonks]

The concerns about the age of the monks are a fine reason to move Tenebrae into the later morning… Do they use Schema B for the Office of Readings and Lauds during the Triduum?

 

[KMG]

It was NEVER a night office. That’s simply historical reality. It was a vesperal liturgy, commenced after None.

 

[porthos11]

It was NEVER a night office. That’s simply historical reality. It was a vesperal liturgy, commenced after None.

Yes i know that. And i think it was rightfully revised and turned into a night office.

And further i think the novus ordo did the right thing by detaching Lauds from the Vigil as well.

 

[porthos11]

porthos11:

And because of opinions like these i hope this ad experimentum period comes to a swift end, the pre-1955 permissions are withdrawn and only the 1955 and 1970 forms remain.

All of the liturgies celebrated according to the pre-1955 rites with the permission of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei are taking place AT NIGHT. Do you have an issue with the rites themselves? Why do you want the indult to be withdrawn?

Because of suggestions like yours that advocate a return to morning Easter Vigils. If thats what pre55 adherents lean to then i would be glad to see the permission withdrawn.

Again i dont see this as a valid criticism against the 1955 rites. It’s more of prejudice against Archbishop Bugnini .

 

[KMG]

I’ll prefer to stick with the tradition of centuries than the novelties of Bugnini, novelties that in the case of the 1955 Holy Week lasted c. 15 years.

 

[FontgombaultMonks]

Because of suggestions like yours that advocate a return to morning Easter Vigils. If thats what pre55 adherents lean to then i would be glad to see the permission withdrawn.

I am not at ‘pre-1955 adherent’. I have never attended the Holy Week rites in the Extraordinary Form (pre or post 1955). I attend a diocesan parish that offers the Mass in both forms of the Roman Rite (one Extraordinary Form Mass per week). I have only watched the pre-1955 Holy Week rites online.

And, no, my opinion is not the norm for most people who are advocating for a return to the pre-1955 rites. Most people (including the ones over in the Vatican who are giving the indult) would prefer to keep it as a nighttime rite, as you would. So, unless there is a dramatic change in opinion at Ecclesia Dei, the pre-1955 rites will be celebrated at the post-1955 times.

I do not advocate for morning Easter Vigils. I think that there are valid reasons for celebrating the vigil on Holy Saturday morning. It is certainly not an evil liturgical practice (the Church would not have sanctioned an evil liturgical practice for 700 years), so it could (at the very least) be tolerated for pastoral reasons.

Here’s an example of a valid pastoral reason for celebrating the Paschal Vigil on the morning of Holy Saturday:

A diocesan parish that offers both the Extraordinary and Ordinary Forms of the Roman Rite. The group who attends the Extraordinary Form would like to have the rites of Holy Week celebrated. As the Ordinary Form Community will be celebrating their rites on the evenings of the Triduum, those times are not available for the celebrations. Naturally, the only time available is the morning, which is available under the guidelines for the pre-1955 Holy Week. The pastor of the parish would probably have to check in with Ecclesia Dei to make sure that they are all right with the use of the morning times. While some may not like this practice, this would be a charitable way to allow the Extraordinary Form community to have their own celebration of the Holy Week rites, rather than denying them their rite as a ‘coetus fidelium’ (mentioned in Summorum Pontificum). No one has to attend this Vigil if they do not want to!

 

[FontgombaultMonks]

For anyone who is interested in seeing the texts for the pre-1955 Holy Week, this is a website that has all of the liturgical books for the pre-1955 rites, as well as booklets (in Latin and English) for the laity.

Pre-1955 Holy Week Mass Propers | Traditional HolyWeek resources

Liturgical resource for the Pre-1955 Holy Week including Mass Propers w/ commentary, Cantus Passionis and articles on the reform of Holy Week. Traditional Holy

www.pre1955holyweek.com

 

[OraLabora]

Do they use Schema B for the Office of Readings and Lauds during the Triduum?

No, they use Schema B throughout the year but for the Triduum, they use Schema A which closely resembles the Roman Rite for those days, as you probably know (I have a 1936 Ordo for Holy Week noted for Gregorian chant; I used it for the melody for the Lamentations, when chanting the Office myself).

They also retained the tradition of starting directly with the sign of the Cross at the first antiphon, that is no opening verse, and also later no hymn nor concluding verse (the abbey, true to tradition, even in Schema B, for the rest of the year, sing the hymns of Lauds and Vespers after the psalmody, reading and responsory). Instead of the responsory after the reading, they sing the Gradual “Christus factus est”, adding more to it on each successive day of the Triduum, finally singing the whole Gradual on Holy Saturday.

In general, for feasts and solemnities, they use the psalms of Schema A except for only one Laudate psalm after the OT Canticle (they use psalm 150; the rubrics call for either 148, 149 or 150).

An interesting mix of tradition with the modern.

 

[FrDavid96]

The claim that the Easter Vigil originally began in the morning is unfounded.

It was a night-time service. It is, after all the “Vigil” Mass–the very word means the night-hours or the night-watch. In no way does the word indicate a morning service.

It was MOVED to the morning in the Middle Ages.

The Church did not originate in the Middle Ages; nor did the Vigil Masses,

However, they did not occur at the same time as they typically do today. Today, they tend to happen very early in the night (soon after sunset, or unfortunately and wrongly, even before). The ancient Vigils of the early Church were held late in the night (or through the night) so that they ended sometime before dawn.

 

[KMG]

Nobody has argued it originated in the morning.

But neither did it originate at night.

The Vesperal Liturgy was a late afternoon liturgy that commenced after None.

Bugnini incorrectly thought that the lessons of the Vigil = a primitive Matins. This was historically incorrect.

Ironically, he also cut those lessons dramatically, despite otherwise clamoring for more and not less Scripture in the Mass.

 

[KMG]

One curious detail about the archaeologists of the Bugnini mindset is that they never, ever suggested resuming the ancient custom of fasting every day of Lent until evening.

 

[KMG]

It’s also telling that Bugnini was extremely bothered by the alleged need to do the Easter Vigil in the middle of the night (which is ahistorical)…but he didn’t care at all about the absurdity of doing Tenebrae in daylight.

 

[FrDavid96]

…
I think that there are a few advantages to celebrating the Paschal Vigil in the morning, although I do believe that it was originally celebrated in the afternoon. …

It was not originally celebrated in the afternoon.

It was originally celebrated at night—that’s why it was called a “vigil” Mass. If it were originally done in the afternoon, we would be calling it the afternoon Mass. We don’t.

The very word “vigil” means “to stay awake.” It does not mean “to wake-up and begin the day.”

Vigil Masses were celebrated in the early Church during the night-time. They were later than what is typical today, because they ended before dawn of (what we would call) the next day.

For example (and I’m using the modern clock here) they began at 3 AM on Sunday, lasted about 3 hours, then ended just before dawn on Sunday at 6 AM. (or lasted 4 hours and began at 2 AM for another example). The point is that they ended just before dawn, but they were night-time services, not morning services. The Mass itself was then celebrated at dawn.

They were not celebrated on Saturday morning until they were MOVED to that place in the late middle ages.

 

[KMG]

This is simply not true.

It IS true that primitively, Christians stayed in Church all night. But they celebrated MULTIPLE services in that all-night service.

The service we know as the Easter Vigil was a part of that service.

And it commenced AFTER NONE, that is, in the afternoon.

Not at night.

 

[FrDavid96]

Nobody has argued it originated in the morning.

Apparently, someone here is trying to make that point.

But neither did it originate at night.
…

Well, they did indeed originate at night. That’s why we call them “vigil” Masses, after all.

The whole point of a vigil (originally) was to stay awake during the night and wait for the dawn of Sunday.

 

[FrDavid96]

This is simply not true.

It IS true that primitively, Christians stayed in Church all night. But they celebrated MULTIPLE services in that all-night service.

The service we know as the Easter Vigil was a part of that service.

And it commenced AFTER NONE, that is, in the afternoon.

Not at night.

Well, history proves you wrong.

You’re writing about a time-period when the Vigils had already been MOVED from their original time to the afternoon-- ie sometime in the late middle ages.

The recorded history is quite clear. Vigil Masses in the early centuries were night-time services.

 

[KMG]

Let’s make this simple, since it’s really shocking that this is so hard to grasp.

Using conventional times:

330pm-ish, None is recited recto tono
430-6pm-ish, Vesperal Liturgy commenced with the Lucernarium
Vesperal Liturgy includes baptisms, confirmations, and ordinations to all orders. The service with all the sacraments of initiation + ordinations to all orders, with absolutely everything sung, takes easily 4-6 hours in length if observed in full
830-10pm, Vesperal liturgy is finished and people remain in church without leaving
Midnight-3am, Paschal Matins and Lauds is sung
At dawn, Mass of the Day

(Later, the insertion of Compline and Prime had the practical effect of moving the Mass from dawn to after Terce, with Prime as the first prayer of the new day, after sunrise).

 

[FrDavid96]

Let’s make this simple, since it’s really shocking that this is so hard to grasp.

Using conventional times:

330pm-ish, None is recited recto tono
430-6pm-ish, Vesperal Liturgy commenced with the Lucernarium
Vesperal Liturgy includes baptisms, confirmations, and ordinations to all orders. The service with all the sacraments of initiation + ordinations to all orders, with absolutely everything sung, takes easily 4-6 hours in length if observed in full
830-10pm, Vesperal liturgy is finished and people remain in church without leaving
Midnight-3am, Paschal Matins and Lauds is sung
At dawn, Mass of the Day

(Later, the insertion of Compline and Prime had the practical effect of moving the Mass from dawn to after Terce, with Prime as the first prayer of the new day, after sunrise).

You’re missing the main point:

You are writing about the practice as done in the late middle ages. No one disputes that.

What you are missing is that there was a time-period BEFORE the middle ages. In the early centuries the Vigil services were in the night.

 

[FrDavid96]

Let’s make this simple, since it’s really shocking that this is so hard to grasp.

Let me make this simple for you:

The Church did not begin in the middle ages.

Apparently, you find that hard to grasp,

 

[KMG]

That is simply not true. The so-called Vesperal liturgy was not invented in the Middle Ages. Even in antiquity, it was observed starting after None.

What happened in the Middle Ages was the gradual anticipation of the time of the Vesperal Liturgy, from late afternoon to, eventually, morning.

This was done for a variety of reasons, reasons I don’t think justified the move. But the Vesperal liturgy, as the name implies, never started at 10pm or midnight (as per Bugnini).

The reason Bugnini thought it did was because he mistakenly thought the lessons of the vigil constituted the primitive Matins. That is not true.