Pre-Cana for Non-Catholic Fiance

[gearhead]

My experience (as an unbaptized atheist) in my marriage preparation course was fine. I’d say about a quarter of the people in the class were non-Catholics of various persuasions, and the instructors did their best to be accommodating and respectful.

The parts of the course on Catholic theology, doctrine and practice were led by a priest. A few times, he asked who wasn’t Catholic, but only to get a sense of who wouldn’t have been taught Catholic “fundamentals” growing up and would need him to cover them.

The rest of the course covered communication and building a healthy marriage (taught by a social worker) and finances (taught by a financial planner/counselor, IIRC). I don’t recall the issue of being non-Catholic even coming up in those parts.

Maybe the issue is just with those specific course leaders. Do they have the option of taking the course somewhere else?

 

[sms]

It is comments like that, that must lead to the “Catholic-bashing” I keep hearing about but have yet to see. Yet whenever I attend and help with Catholic Church/School function with my wife of 15 years there is always someone there more than willing to make some snide remark or simply refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a non-Catholic is present. I have had my beliefs openly ridiculed by both clergy and lay people at Catholic functions and it has been a very disheartening experience. I have gotten to the point that I will publicly call people on the carpet for it since the private asides and emails did no good. I devote more time, money and material to the local Catholic school and am often called to help with marketing materials, communications, etc. (that is my former career) than many in the parish. Yet, many will say loudly in front of me: “It sure would be nice if we could get the protestant influences out of here.” Of course many of these same people give the school or church nothing but 40 minutes of their time a week

It’s so sad to hear that comments like you mentioned are made to or about non-Catholics. I’m glad you’re able to speak up when it happens to you - perhaps it may actually make some Catholics stop and think a bit about what the Catholic religion REALLY is about, and it’s certainly NOT about bashing ANYONE!
I think the majority of Catholics would frown upon such comments about non-Catholics, but it’s the louder and apparently insensitive minority that unfortunately comes through loud and clear.
Unfortunately, there are good and bad in every religion, just as we each have a bit of good and bad in all of us, but God is trying to help us all, no matter what our religion, to just let the good shine through!
I hope our future SIL is able to speak up rather than silently seethe if he encounters any non-Catholic bashing at all at Pre-Cana when they go. I will certainly be encouraging him to.
Thanks for relating your experiences.

 

[PassingThru]

I went through the classes this summer as a non-Catholic, and I must say that for our classes, bashing was the least of our worries. I would actually have some fun with it, make some “us Protestants…” jokes, poke fun at myself. I even had a few Catholic zingers in there, and everyone had a laugh knowing we were all aware of our differences but not being defensive about it. Keep in mind we had a close group of young couples, probably wont work everywhere!

Has anyone else gone through the classes recently? We had about ten couples. All but maybe one or two where non-Catholic couples. I think our class leader had a tough time trying to maintain the Catholic message. With only an exception here or there, we were mostly co-habitating, almost everyone was using a form of contraception. It has to be difficult to lead couples in this environment…

Bottom line, as others has said, unless you have someone overzealous in the group, I would not expect any problems. And the church leaders should DEFINITELY step in if that should be the case.

 

[Incomplete]

It is comments like that, that must lead to the “Catholic-bashing” I keep hearing about but have yet to see.

You may not see them, but they are everywhere. While I’m sure there are Catholics who ask for it by bashing others, often it’s uncalled for.

For example, the public school system is full of it. One teacher was telling some kids about her relative who is a “recovering” Catholic. Another teacher “taught” about “those greedy Catholics.” My daughter was in both cases doing nothing to warrant those comments. And that’s just the tip of the iceburg.

It makes me sad to read of any Catholic “bashing” non-Catholics. This thread is a great reminder to all of us to treat our non-Catholic brothers and sisters how we ask to be treated.

 

[Bluegoat]

Bet you a cookie this wonderful guy will also have problems when it is time to baptize the babies, go to Mass every week, go to Mass on Christmas when it is not Sunday, observe Lent and especially Holy Week/Good Friday (that is time to party and decorate easter eggs and you want to fast and go to Mass???).

I can’t see a single reason to think this might be the case in what has been written. Anyone would be concerned if his friend told him that he was ridiculed for his faith in his marriaige prep. If indeed it was the case, it would be an indication that there was something very wrong in the class and it would be natural to be hesitant about taking it.

It seems like you are purposefully taking the most uncharitable view, that this man is so silly he doesn’t understand the difference between presenting Catholic doctrine and putting down others, that his intentions are dishonest and dishonorable, and that his religious faith is shallow.

And that IS offensive.

 

[marymyothermom]

I was the non-catholic fiance at pre-cana. It was fine. Half of it was about NFP- the other half was a priest that was married and his wife died, and thats why he became a priest. He seemed kind of resentful about the whole deal. But anyway, overall it was a good experience. Also, something my husband and i did when we got married is my then pastor participated in the ceremony. He asked hubby his vows to me, and his priest asked me my vows. It was really neat. I’m so Catholic now.

 

[sms]

…The parts of the course on Catholic theology, doctrine and practice were led by a priest. A few times, he asked who wasn’t Catholic, but only to get a sense of who wouldn’t have been taught Catholic “fundamentals” growing up and would need him to cover them.
The rest of the course covered communication and building a healthy marriage (taught by a social worker) and finances (taught by a financial planner/counselor, IIRC). I don’t recall the issue of being non-Catholic even coming up in those parts.
Maybe the issue is just with those specific course leaders. Do they have the option of taking the course somewhere else?

Yes, they have several different locations (with some much further away than others) and dates to choose from, but they’re somewhat limited due to their work schedules, so we’ll have to wait and see which one they decide on. I know I will highly recommend to them that they steer clear of the one presented by the same volunteers that were negative toward non-Catholics when his friend went. Hopefully the brochures they received list the names of the presenters, but I’m not sure.
Thanks very much for the info on the material covered and attitudes expressed when you attended. I’m glad your session went well.

 

[Stylites]

Just have a question re: Pre-Cana. Our daughter’s fiance is Christian but not Catholic. His friend told him that he had a horrible experience going to pre-Cana before he got married to a Catholic because the people giving the Pre-Cana kept “putting down” the non-Catholics in attendance big-time. Now our future son-in-law is having reservations about whether to even go through it from what he’s heard. They have reserved a Catholic Church for the wedding, but I’m praying they don’t change their minds and decide to get married in his non-Catholic Church instead.
Has anyone had any similar experience with this or can anyone possibly give any advice?
Thanks.

The priest and president of “The Center for Family Development” in Bethesda, MD, Fr. John Hopkins, LC, specializes in marriage counselling. They also offer “Three to Get Married” retreats for pre-Cana.

bethesdacfd.org

 

[LongingForLight]

They didn’t have any problems with Protestant-bashing. But the weekend was rather a disappointment to them. Perhaps because they had been dating for seven years, some of the material was too shallow for them.

We did Engaged Encounter. Although we’d only been dating for about 2 1/2 years, we had a similar experience - the material was incredibly shallow, and we ended up skipping a few sessions. I don’t think we covered a single topic that DH and I hadn’t already discussed in depth.

However, we had no issues with non-Catholics feeling uncomfortable. DH is an agnostic. There was a prayer session that DH was asked to participate in that was a little uncomfortable for him since he doesn’t believe in God and feels like praying is dishonest (he also doesn’t disbelieve in God, so is concerned about being honest in case God does exist).

 

[sms]

I went through the classes this summer as a non-Catholic, and I must say that for our classes, bashing was the least of our worries. I would actually have some fun with it, make some “us Protestants…” jokes, poke fun at myself. I even had a few Catholic zingers in there, and everyone had a laugh knowing we were all aware of our differences but not being defensive about it. Keep in mind we had a close group of young couples, probably wont work everywhere!

Has anyone else gone through the classes recently? We had about ten couples. All but maybe one or two where non-Catholic couples. I think our class leader had a tough time trying to maintain the Catholic message. With only an exception here or there, we were mostly co-habitating, almost everyone was using a form of contraception. It has to be difficult to lead couples in this environment…

Bottom line, as others has said, unless you have someone overzealous in the group, I would not expect any problems. And the church leaders should DEFINITELY step in if that should be the case.

I like that humorous approach! Thanks, PT! I will also suggest the light-hearted approach to them. I’ve already told them that they need to report it to whatever Church leaders would be appropriate if true non-Catholic bashing occurs, but I hope and pray that won’t happen.

 

[kage_ar]

What exactly would you consider “non-Catholic bashing”?

What if the presenter reads what the Catechism says about mixed marriages… is that bashing?

What if the presenter says “The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus, the rest split off because they denied some part of the truth”? That is simply truth.

What about if the presenter says “The Catholic Church is the only Church that holds Christ’s teachings on marriage and divorce”?

“The Catholic Church gave us the Bible”

“The Catholic Church is God’s Church”…

These are all truth -

 

[PassingThru]

Well kage, I would say those would probably not qualify as “non-Catholic” bashing.

I would also say everyone has there own “Truths” and those are yours. I am glad you have your convictions.

I would also venture to say you would be the odd man out at our sessions, and would do a wonderful job of helping to create divisions among happy couples looking to start a life together. Would you like it better if the Protestants asked permission to use “Your Bible”?

Like I said, if everyone is looking for a good experience in the class, you are set. If someone is looking for a religious pissing contest, you will get those too…

Good Luck

 

[sms]

kage,
I would consider non-Catholic bashing at a Pre-Cana session as something that makes non-Catholics feel unwelcome and “inferior.” I would like to think that, if Jesus were present at the session (which I believe He is actually since He’s everywhere, including checking out this thread), He would not be putting down anyone in the room, no matter what their religion or lack thereof.
“Love one another, as I have loved you,” is something He might be saying once again instead.
Peace and God’s love to you.

 

[kage_ar]

Take some time to read the Catechism on marriage, what She teaches about mixed marriages - why even Pre Cana cannot be squishy and indifferent.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm#1633

Mixed marriages and disparity of cult

1633 In many countries the situation of a mixed marriage (marriage between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic) often arises. It requires particular attention on the part of couples and their pastors. A case of marriage with disparity of cult (between a Catholic and a non-baptized person) requires even greater circumspection.

[1634](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1634.htm’) Difference of confession between the spouses does not constitute an insurmountable obstacle for marriage, when they succeed in placing in common what they have received from their respective communities, and learn from each other the way in which each lives in fidelity to Christ. **But the difficulties of mixed marriages must not be underestimated. They arise from the fact that the separation of Christians has not yet been overcome. The spouses risk experiencing the tragedy of Christian disunity even in the heart of their own home. Disparity of cult can further aggravate these difficulties. Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children. The temptation to religious indifference can then arise. **

---

1635 According to the law in force in the Latin Church, a mixed marriage needs for liceity the express permission of ecclesiastical authority.137 In case of disparity of cult an express dispensation from this impediment is required for the validity of the marriage.138 This permission or dispensation presupposes that both parties know and do not exclude the essential ends and properties of marriage; and furthermore that the Catholic party confirms the obligations, which have been made known to the non-Catholic party, of preserving his or her own faith and ensuring the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church.139

[1636](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1636.htm’) Through ecumenical dialogue Christian communities in many regions have been able to put into effect a common pastoral practice for mixed marriages. Its task is to help such couples live out their particular situation in the light of faith, overcome the tensions between the couple’s obligations to each other and towards their ecclesial communities, and encourage the flowering of what is common to them in faith and respect for what separates them.
1637 In marriages with disparity of cult the Catholic spouse has a particular task: "For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband."140 It is a great joy for the Christian spouse and for the Church if this “consecration” should lead to the free conversion of the other spouse to the Christian faith.141 Sincere married love, the humble and patient practice of the family virtues, and perseverance in prayer can prepare the non-believing spouse to accept the grace of conversion.

 

[1ke]

I would also say everyone has there own “Truths” and those are yours.

Moral relativism is a heresy. Individual people do not have their own truth or truths.

There is only one Truth. That is God. Everything IS and it IS as God created it and as God commands it.

God communicates that Truth regarding who He is and how we are to live through the Person of Jesus Christ.

The teachings of Christ are preserved and taught through the apostolic authority Christ gave to to the Bishops through the laying on of hands.

There is only one Truth. It can be embraced or it can be rejected. And, yes, that is each person’s choice, ultimately.

There is no such thing as individual truth nor is each person entitled to their “own” truth.

 

[tedfay]

My wife is non-catholic, not even properly a Christian yet as she is not baptized. She has protestant leanings and is antipathetic towards the Church.

Pre-cana for us was difficult because of her disagreement with Church teaching at the time, particularly with regards to birth control and NFP. However, there was no bashing of non-catholics.

I urge you to advise your child that marrying a non-catholic will cause grave difficulties later in life. My wife and I have fought bitterly about how to raise our daughter. Terrible clashes can arise when deciding where to go for Sunday service, and what churches teach, what doctrines to believe. It’s only by the grace of God that I am still married at all.

I implore you and your child that she strongly reconsider marrying this person, or else maybe seeing if this person would be willing to convert. Marriage is hard enough as it is.

 

[PassingThru]

For example, as I said previously, now would be one of those good times to craft a quick “us Protestant…” jokes, probably centering on how we are all “heretics”. Also as I said earlier, as this is a mixed group, you could end up with people being overzealous and preaching down to others. 1ke, you could fill in well in that role.

Try to be more clear, just say “The Catholic Church is the only path. You are not Catholic. I am right, you are wrong.” And don’t mix in belief in God and Christ in your argument. Bringing up core beliefs people share to use as a weapon is a juvenile tactic.

The OP specifically asked about how to handle these classes in a mixed group. I think my advice was fair on both sides. Again, good job on creating an example of that “religious pissing contest” I mentioned earlier. You must be a blast at parties.

 

[1ke]

For example, as I said previously, now would be one of those good times to craft a quick “us Protestant…” jokes, probably centering on how we are all “heretics”.

Protestants are not heretics. Only a Catholic can be a heretic as it relates to the Catholic religion.

Protestant doctrines, and other doctrines that are non-Christian (such as moral relativism, humanism, etc) are heresies.

Also as I said earlier, as this is a mixed group, you could end up with people being overzealous and preaching down to others. 1ke, you could fill in well in that role.

I was not “preaching down to others” nor would this be a topic I would expect to encounter in a marriage preparation class. This, however, is a Catholic message board and when people propose untrue ideas-- such as everyone can have their own truth-- it should be pointed out that these ideas are wrong ideas. That’s the point of this message board-- to share the truth about Christ and his Church.

Try to be more clear, just say “The Catholic Church is the only path. You are not Catholic. I am right, you are wrong.”

This message board is for a purpose-- debating religion. And, you placed out there a false idea that everyone has their own truth and it’s all equal. I challenged that idea.

Quit taking things personally or you won’t last long on an internet message board.

And don’t mix in belief in God and Christ in your argument. Bringing up core beliefs people share to use as a weapon is a juvenile tactic.

God and Christ, and the truth about them could not be more central to the argument. Right belief about Christ is essential.

I did not bring up “core beliefs that people share” nor did I attempt to use them as a “weapon.” Any group that shares the belief that truth is relative is not a Christian group. That is not a core teaching of Christianity. It is rejected, rightly so, as a heresy.

The OP specifically asked about how to handle these classes in a mixed group.

And I addressed her question.

I think my advice was fair on both sides. Again, good job on creating an example of that “religious pissing contest” I mentioned earlier. You must be a blast at parties.

I was not addressing the OP. I was addressing YOUR statement that truth is relative.

Somehow, these topics never come up at parties. They do, however, come up on a Catholic message board whose purpose is spreading the Catholic faith.

 

[PassingThru]

OK, I retract my Truth statement. That wasn’t my point, its a loaded term. I only used that term in response to kage when he brought up Truth in a fashion that clearly indicated the Catholic Church as the truth. In light of the classes, that would not be bashing, as it is what the Catholic Church teaches, but would probably not be a very constructive direction for the class.

Look, its all about delivery. Our class covered all the Catholic traditions and beliefs in a very non-confrontational way, making for a very constructive class. My point is responses that are clearly meant to convey, is some way, some spiritual superiority will not be well received. This conversation is a prime example. That is it. Who is right is not even the point. I will gladly submit that you have better backing on things like how you define heretics and heresies. Again, not the point.

This has gotten way off course, and not even remotely constructive. I am not trying to debate scripture or beliefs.

All I am saying, in relation to non-Catholics at Pre-Cana classes, is that if the Catholics in the group don’t present ideas in a confrontational or superior fashion, non-Catholics should feel A-OK in the group. Some example statements given here would likely make some uncomfortable. Again, not the topic, but the delivery. Thats it.

 

[rick43235]

There is no such thing as individual truth nor is each person entitled to their “own” truth.

You must be a blast at parties.

Anyway…

I think the problem is that we are using the word “truth” when we should be saying “belief.” Clearly, 1ke strongly believes that truth is found only in the Catholic Church. Someone of another religious tradition might believe just as strongly that it is only in their faith that truth is found. Yet another person might believe that religious teachings are nothing but fairy tales. The simple fact is that none of us REALLY know what the “truth” is. So, in a manner of speaking, each person IS entitled to their “own truth” (belief).

That said, anyone going to a Catholic Pre-Cana session should expect to hear Catholic beliefs presented. If you don’t happen to believe Catholic teachings, just let them go in one ear and out the other. (Unless there’s a quiz at the end, in which case you should probably remember them long enough to pass.)