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JDaniel
Guest
Das:
I, for one, do not have a problem with the first part of your dichotomy. I’d have to think through the part about a “plan.”
God bless,
jd
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I, for one, do not have a problem with the first part of your dichotomy. I’d have to think through the part about a “plan.”
God bless,
jd
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DasErlibnis
Guest
Foreknowledge? Well, I guess I’m going to answer with a question…what doesn’t God know??Das:
What do you think ‘foreknowledge’ is?
God bless,
jd
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JDaniel
Guest
Das:
Do you think He knows His own future, assuming that He has a duration of some sort?
God bless,
jd
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DasErlibnis
Guest
Lol, I’m sorry. Did u ask “assuming he has a duration”?
Ok, next question please. I’ll return to serious conversation, but thanks for the laugh. I’m not going to “assume” that God has a “duration” of some sort, then he wouldn’t be “godly” enough.
Scheizer, I’m still laughing…out loud!
But here’s your study for the coming week: whats the difference between Chronos and Xairos?
Ok, next question please. I’ll return to serious conversation, but thanks for the laugh. I’m not going to “assume” that God has a “duration” of some sort, then he wouldn’t be “godly” enough.
Scheizer, I’m still laughing…out loud!
But here’s your study for the coming week: whats the difference between Chronos and Xairos?
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JDaniel
Guest
J
JDaniel
Guest
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DasErlibnis
Guest
Sorry…I’m just not following you. Did u mean to be funny? I just don’t know anymore…So He must be psychic!
jd
You want a “do over”?
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JDaniel
Guest
Yes. It was a paltry attempt at humor. I was hoping to keep you laughing for a long time!
God bless,
jd
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DasErlibnis
Guest
Ah… humor is not lost on me, mine though is dry, and sometimes sardonic
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JDaniel
Guest
Das:
Strange. I had no idea. Mine’s wet and clever. We should get along swimmingly. And, remember, the “p” is silent.
I hope you had a wonderful holiday, a Merry Christmas, and wish you a Happy New Year.
Catch you in the battle,
jd
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DasErlibnis
Guest
Silent like the “C” in “rap” music?? It must be French…
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DasErlibnis
Guest
Okay, I’ll divulge posting a part of what I’ve written, at the risk of losing “blind” opportunities.
What I’m leaning toward is that God, even in foreknowledge, cannot help but to crested souls of those both in heaven and in hell, because to not create would be akin to not loving. Bible says “even thieves…”
It’s a heartbreaker for sure, but it has to be done. For the same reason that we would not abort a baby being born into a ****** world. Even of you know that your child will not live in a paradise of your own creation, if u love that child, you love it into existence, you can’t help it.
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JDaniel
Guest
I will take an oath that I will not steal any of your ideas!
What does ‘foreknowledge’ mean when discussing that which is Infinite?
Does not ‘foreknowledge’ imply duration of some sort? (That’s the point I was trying to have you look at earlier. I wasn’t just trying to make you laugh.)
I envision that God is so intimately involved in everything - as it is in the state of happening - that He simply sees the beginning and end, of things, simultaneously. So, although His intention is to create new creatures that will all enter Heaven, He sees, instantly, that many do not.
Definitely a “heartbreaker,” unless God has something else in store for those who do not make it to Heaven. Do we have any inkling of that?
God bless,
jd
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Pitcharan
Guest
Frank: Even St. Augustine acknowledges that it is an [unfathomable] “mystery!”
God bless,
jd
Ubenedictus said:
J
JDaniel
Guest
Pitcharan:
Your thoughts?
What simplifies it for you? (I’m not opposed to your point of view.)
God bless,
jd
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DasErlibnis
Guest
“Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you”
Foreknowledge refers to God’s knowledge of you before his actual creation of you (so, before he placed you into the Chronos.)
You’re second statement regarding time and simultaneous is true.
The third statement, that something else is in store for those who do not make it to heaven, we call it Hell. That’s what’s in store.
Since it is the case that God creates out of love, and so to not create, even those who would ultimately reject his love, would deny him his love for us. But God does not deny himself, and more importantly he doesn’t deny us either. How many times has he requitted his anger toward his own people the Jews? A lot. He even sent a savior, his own Son. He won’t deny a humble heart. But those who deny God on earth have no opportunity for reconciliation in the afterlife because their hearts are hard, and they are incapable of changing post-mordum. There is a great divide, and no one may cross over to either side, .all that is done is done, nothing changes in eternity.
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Pitcharan
Guest
Hi friend,
here I repeat my few thoughts: I feel that ‘predestination’ is better understood as ‘predefined destination of souls according to their attitude and conduct during their earthly sojourn’. God has only defined the way to heaven and helps us with how to get there. It is the process and outcome that are predefined and not the persons. Even the Catholic belief that some are set apart as elect, I find difficulty in digesting and continue to ponder.
Some more related thoughts that I already posted elsewhere are reproduced below:
Salvation is merely offered and not doled out like a gift. Salvation is not an event but a process that is completed on the day of judgement. The salvation process is made crystal clear by our Lord’s life and teachings. The eternal punishment we incur for our sins is firstly canceled by the process called JUSTIFICATION and the defilement that causes us to sin is cleansed by the process called SANCTIFICATION.
JUSTIFICATION or removal of sins: Sin is a debt that we cannot repay as Satan claims our souls; yet God who has ransomed us with the blood of His Son, is able to cancel the debt of sin for many good reasons:* “Love covers a multitude of sins; if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you”*. (1Pet 4:8b, Mt 6:14)
SANCTIFICATION or freedom from slavery to sin: Suffering is the only remedy available for cleansing interior defilement and uprooting the very cause of sin. Recall what our Lord taught: “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ‘For everyone will be salted with fire’.” (Mk 9:43, 49)
To stop sinning is humanly impossible and yet our helplessness is not futility for our God is ‘the help of the helpless’ Whose power is made perfect in our weakness. The battle is truly His and we only have to show our love by refusing to remain slaves and struggling. Freedom is achieved through complete purging of our sinful nature by our own sufferings which can only increase manifold if avoided now and kept for purgation after death.
To know how one loses the offer of salvation, consider this:
***Matthew 22
The Parable of the Wedding Banquet***
1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’
5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14** “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”**
Is it not clear from the above parable that the offer of salvation which was made firstly to Israel is now made to all mankind; but the ones who prove unworthy by their own attitude and conduct are bound to lose it?
The key to salvific thinking and attitude is gratitude which is reciprocal love and the harbinger of all other graces and spiritual gifts and
The killer is ingratitude that enables the Enemy to inject pride and thereby entangle and enslave us in all kind of detestable conduct
If I can believe that God created everything out of nothing then all other spiritual truths are as simple or as complex. Do we have any difficulty in believing that Virgin Mary conceived Jesus? Then why should any other truth become complex?
All confusion about pre-destination is because of some apparently conflicting statements in the Pauline letters. Paul has never claimed that all his letters are inspired thoughts. In fact, there are instances when he mentions about one thought being inspired and another being his own thought.
If you describe something which you find to be complex, then I can share my simple thoughts
K
Kathryn_Ann
Guest
Hi,
I wish I could find the exact place in scripture, but it reads something about how God desires all men to come to Him…So, my belief has always been that although God knows the future choices we may make, He is everyone’s loving Heavenly Father, and would not shape us for evil. I’m sure there are others here who are Biblical scholars, but my feeling is that if God sees the future of someone who makes evil decisions and that person (He already knows) refuses to confess and repent, then that is what is meant by God’s “hardening their heart”, for example, speaking of the evil Pharoah who later had many plagues set upon him.
I hope I’m saying this correctly, but my thought is that we have free will and that God desires all men to come to an understanding of Him and His love for us. If a person, knowing this love, rejects it and chooses to turn away, that is his own free will. God, seeing the future, already knows everything. He will work through the children who choose to do good, but does not force them either!
I hope this is the kind of response you were looking for, but if not, I’m sure there will be others who know more.
Blessings,
Kathryn Ann
I wish I could find the exact place in scripture, but it reads something about how God desires all men to come to Him…So, my belief has always been that although God knows the future choices we may make, He is everyone’s loving Heavenly Father, and would not shape us for evil. I’m sure there are others here who are Biblical scholars, but my feeling is that if God sees the future of someone who makes evil decisions and that person (He already knows) refuses to confess and repent, then that is what is meant by God’s “hardening their heart”, for example, speaking of the evil Pharoah who later had many plagues set upon him.
I hope I’m saying this correctly, but my thought is that we have free will and that God desires all men to come to an understanding of Him and His love for us. If a person, knowing this love, rejects it and chooses to turn away, that is his own free will. God, seeing the future, already knows everything. He will work through the children who choose to do good, but does not force them either!
I hope this is the kind of response you were looking for, but if not, I’m sure there will be others who know more.
Blessings,
Kathryn Ann
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JDaniel
Guest
Das:
Yeah, I know. I’m just not completely happy with that scenario, I guess. Since God controls everything, that would mean that He causes it to happen. I know that He does; but, naturally, I’m trying to shield Him from the ramifications.
It is heartbreaking. This is a tough reconciliation to have to make.
You see . . . over and over He rescues the very people who did not show Him filial love.
God bless,
jd
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JDaniel
Guest
Thank you for your gracious response. There’s a lot here to digest. I have a very early work morning tomorrow and, as I want to think about this some more, I’ll have to beg you to allow me to reply tomorrow. With your permission, then?
God bless,
jd
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