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Churchman25
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Can your pre destination change?
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KildareBrigid
Guest
I don’t understand your question. The Church believes God has given us free will to obey him and go to heaven or reject him and go to hell (after he judges us). We are not predestined for either.
No.
The number of the predestined is fixed, as it is a part of divine will and divine providence.
This is also not Catholic teaching, but a number of Catholics hold on to this erroneous belief, usually as an overreaction to Calvinism.
The Catholic faith DOES teach predestination as an act of divine ordinance and will, and as a dogma; it cannot be denied. It also teaches reprobation as well, i.e. predestination to hell, believe it or not, also as a dogma (CCC 1037 notwithstanding; this is easily reconciled as referring to unconditioned positive reprobation)… However, unlike the Calvinists, the Catholic Church condemns unconditioned positive reprobaton (a.k.a. double-predestination) as heretical AND affirms both the action of grace and man’s free will in the attainment of the divine decree of election.
HOW this happens, the Church has not defined, and has permitted multiple schools of thought on this matter, the most well known being the Thomist (Banezan) and Molinist.
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KildareBrigid
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Interesting! I will have to read more about this. Thanks
You should. It’s a most interesting, if difficult topic, so you should probably expect your first readings to go way over your head. Check out the section on Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma”; he synthesizes this topic quite well and presents both the orthodox and heretical propositions, so you know what to embrace and which to avoid.
But again, at least for the first few readings, expect to get really confused. Predestination is one of the toughest mysteries of the Catholic faith, but it is indeed part of the faith, and is therefore worth studying.
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Churchman25
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"CCC 1037"God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance:621”
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Hatikvah
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I asked some questions on the Catholic view of predestination a while back.
This was written by an apologist for CA.
This was written by an apologist for CA.
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thephilosopher6
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I’m Thomistic in my view of predestination.
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zab
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I don’t know what you are saying. I know that God in His infinite wisdom knows all things. He knows what we will do and still gives us free will to choose to love Him or not. He does not withhold His love and grace because He knows the outcome. He is like a mother or father weeping for their wayward prodigal child to return. God does not put a limit on the number of souls that are to be saved. It is we who choose to be saved or not.
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Eichelbaum
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I like Dr. Larry Feingold’s definition:
Predestination is that particular part of God’s eternal plan by which He freely wills to bring men to eternal salvation through providing them with an abundant series of gratuitous graces, with which He foreknows that they will cooperate, at least at the decisive moments of their lives, so that they will be found in the grace of God at the point of death.
And elsewhere, he opines:
It follows that salvation (and predestination) has two causes. The first and principal cause is surely God, but the secondary cause is man’s free cooperation with—or lack of resistance to—God’s grace. God is immeasurably more the cause of predestination than man, for He is the divine archer. Nevertheless, man’s free correspondence foreseen by God cooperates with the movement imparted by the divine archer so that man reaches salvation. Thus man’s free cooperation would seem to be a cooperating cause of predestination. The persistent lack of cooperation, on the other hand, is the only cause of reprobation.
Given this view, the answer to your question, OP, is no.
Predestination is that particular part of God’s eternal plan by which He freely wills to bring men to eternal salvation through providing them with an abundant series of gratuitous graces, with which He foreknows that they will cooperate, at least at the decisive moments of their lives, so that they will be found in the grace of God at the point of death.
And elsewhere, he opines:
It follows that salvation (and predestination) has two causes. The first and principal cause is surely God, but the secondary cause is man’s free cooperation with—or lack of resistance to—God’s grace. God is immeasurably more the cause of predestination than man, for He is the divine archer. Nevertheless, man’s free correspondence foreseen by God cooperates with the movement imparted by the divine archer so that man reaches salvation. Thus man’s free cooperation would seem to be a cooperating cause of predestination. The persistent lack of cooperation, on the other hand, is the only cause of reprobation.
Given this view, the answer to your question, OP, is no.
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RPRPsych
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That is (a fairly good approximation to) the Molinist viewpoint. The Thomistic view is somewhat different, as it places a stronger emphasis on the sovereignty of God. In a nutshell: God gives every one sufficient grace for salvation, but he only gives efficacious grace to some, and this is not in anticipation of our foreseen merits. Therefore, predestination to salvation is upheld, but predestination to damnation is rejected as it is the consequence of our sins, and not an arbitrary decree.
I personally tilt towards a Molinist sort of position, but I try not to over-think the issue, as I have more important things to worry about, such as finding the right infant formula for RPR Junior and learning the chords to Genesis’ “Follow You, Follow Me”.
But under either scheme, the answer to the OP’s question is “No”.
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Eichelbaum
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This is the position of Domingo Banez and Garrigou-Lagrange, and it frankly comes close to Calvin.
But St. Thomas Aquinas himself never made the distinction between sufficient and efficacious grace.
One of the main problems with this position, indeed, is that it seems to destroy free will, something St. Thomas made clear was a key component that differentiates the rational creature from the non-rational.
Again, see Dr. Feingold for more information if you’re so inclined.
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RPRPsych
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Well, I got that from Garrigou - Lagrange.
And I agree with you, the entire concept comes uneasily close to Calvin and his “Irresistible Grace”.
Thanks for the information. Checking it out now.
You are equating foreknowledge with predestination, which is also not what the Catholic Church teaches. Part of predestination is that it is not only a foreknowledge (which does play a part), but also an act of the sovereign will of God. In other words, God actively ordains, as an act of his will, that certain people should attain eternal blessedness. It is in fact God’s action (i.e. grace) that leads men to heaven, but in Catholic thought, for the predestined, God ensures that the divine decree of election in in fact, secured. The formulation (cf. Ott, FoCD) is this:
God, through an eternal resolve of his will, predestines certain men to eternal blessedness (de fide).
Whether or not this is in light of foreseen merits or without consideration of them, the Church has not defined and multiple opinions are permitted.
The number of the predestined is fixed and unchangeable, because predestination is part of divine providence, which of course, is part of the divine will. And as with all things God, divine will is immutable. Further, we do not know with certainty who are of the predestined although there are signs that could strongly identify those of the elect.
You cannot dismiss predestination. It is a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church.
And in fact, this is what makes part of Calvin’s thought actually acceptable in Catholicism. If one takes the Thomist position of predestination to glory ante praevisa merita, it is in fact half of Calvin, and is orthodox, for as long as one does not deny free will. Thomist thought considers that God knows how each man will respond to various graces, and so God gives certain graces to the elect to ensure the decree of election is fulfilled.Well, I got that from Garrigou - Lagrange.
And I agree with you, the entire concept comes uneasily close to Calvin and his “Irresistible Grace”.
Thanks for the information. Checking it out now.
My issue with the Thomist position is that it doesn’t (in my own understanding) properly account for reprobation. If one is predestined ante praevisa merita, then how does the Thomist formulate the mystery of reprobation? For me, it practically equates to double-predestination.
This is why I tend towards Molinist thought on the matter, as it accounts well for both sides of the coin (while I’m well aware that it isn’t a perfect school of thought too).
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RPRPsych
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My own views exactly. While Molinism isn’t perfect, it certainly comes across as a more “common-sense” view, and is probably the system that is easier to explain to the doubtful, or to those new to the faith. (But for the record, I must state that I once bumped into a Protestant on Facebook who insisted he was a Molinist, and then went on to endorse double predestination, more specifically the reprobation of Pope Benedict.
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thistle
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If some are predestined to be saved then surely that means those people have no free will to reject or accept God.
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kdbueno
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Predestination approves that your lacking of grace is sufficient for the divine predestination of life. In other words, your insufficiency is sufficient by reason of eternal grace.
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
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No it doesn’t because the extent of our free will is one of the crucial elements in our destiny.
God discerns it better than us.
Why should we despair over others and the gifts God has given them?
Various teachings were in error because they were half-truths.
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