Pre destination

[Churchman25]

Here is how I sort of understand it every one is pre destined to heaven, and God even gave us the graces to reach that goal. Its just that God knows that some people will reject his Graces. If they stay like that till their death then they will go to hell. The Church does reject that people are predestined to hell, they are sent their, because of their rejection of the Lords graces.

Church teaching can’t be in error because the church is guided by the holy spirit, who is the captain of truth. So if the church was teaching false hoods it would be led by satan this is impossible.

 

[zab]

You are equating foreknowledge with predestination, which is also not what the Catholic Church teaches. Part of predestination is that it is not only a foreknowledge (which does play a part), but also an act of the sovereign will of God. In other words, God actively ordains, as an act of his will, that certain people should attain eternal blessedness. It is in fact God’s action (i.e. grace) that leads men to heaven, but in Catholic thought, for the predestined, God ensures that the divine decree of election in in fact, secured. The formulation (cf. Ott, FoCD) is this:

God, through an eternal resolve of his will, predestines certain men to eternal blessedness (de fide).

Whether or not this is in light of foreseen merits or without consideration of them, the Church has not defined and multiple opinions are permitted.

The number of the predestined is fixed and unchangeable, because predestination is part of divine providence, which of course, is part of the divine will. And as with all things God, divine will is immutable. Further, we do not know with certainty who are of the predestined although there are signs that could strongly identify those of the elect.

You cannot dismiss predestination. It is a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church.

Your are in error. I am not equating foreknowledge with predestination. I only said that I do not know what you are saying. And I wrote what I understand and know.

 

[porthos11]

If some are predestined to be saved then surely that means those people have no free will to reject or accept God.

No it does not, and the Church rejects this premise. Catholicism affirms both predestination and free will, and in fact, requires us to hold on to BOTH concepts. It’s no either/or.

It’s the reconciliation of these two concepts that’s the challenge, and here the Church allows diversity of thought.

 

[porthos11]

Your are in error. I am not equating foreknowledge with predestination. I only said that I do not know what you are saying. And I wrote what I understand and know.

I doubt that. Nowhere in your post did you affirm God’s sovereignty and your statement that God does not put limits on the saved appears on the surface to deny the immutability of the number of the predestined.

But all in all, I am the one who does not know what you are saying. In fact, you didn’t make it clear what your position on the matter of predestination is, but the tone of your post suggests you’re leaning towards a position against it.

Correct me, though, if I am wrong and clarify your position. If I am in error, point it out.

 

[porthos11]

Here is how I sort of understand it every one is pre destined to heaven,

No, incorrect. Not everyone is predestined to heaven.

and God even gave us the graces to reach that goal.

Correct. This is the doctrine of sufficient grace, and is a necessary component of the Universal Desire for Salvation.

Its just that God knows that some people will reject his Graces. If they stay like that till their death then they will go to hell. The Church does reject that people are predestined to hell, they are sent their, because of their rejection of the Lords graces.

It’s more nuanced than that. The Church DOES teach the doctrine of reprobation, that certain people are predestined to hell, but NOT in the Calvinist sense. The formulation, as given by Ott, is this:

God, by an eternal resolve of his will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal damnation. (De fide)

The key phrase is “on account of their foreseen sins”. But again, contrary to what many Catholics think, it’s not merely God’s foreknowledge. He in fact ordains the damnation of the reprobate, but post praevisa demerita, i.e. with consideration of their foreseen rejection of his grace. Again, how exactly this happens is something the Church has not defined. She only teaches that it does.

Church teaching can’t be in error because the church is guided by the holy spirit, who is the captain of truth. So if the church was teaching false hoods it would be led by satan this is impossible.

The Church does not teach falsehood. She teaches the truth, and the truth includes the mysteries of predestination and reprobation.

 

[KildareBrigid]

You should. It’s a most interesting, if difficult topic, so you should probably expect your first readings to go way over your head.

You can say that again! Haha!

 

[Churchman25]

This is from the Chatecism site.

CCC “1037” “God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:619”

 

[porthos11]

This is from the Chatecism site.

CCC “1037” “God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:619”

And again, read the previous posts, both mine and others. The Catechism does not conflict with the teaching on reprobation, as it is easily understood as rejecting Calvinist double-predestination.

The Catechism is a catechetical tool, not a theological one. We have volumes of writings from theologians and Church councils on predestination and reprobation. It is hardly possible to capture all the nuances of these tough mysteries in a catechetical one-liner.

 

[zab]

I doubt that. Nowhere in your post did you affirm God’s sovereignty and your statement that God does not put limits on the saved appears on the surface to deny the immutability of the number of the predestined.

But all in all, I am the one who does not know what you are saying. In fact, you didn’t make it clear what your position on the matter of predestination is, but the tone of your post suggests you’re leaning towards a position against it.

Correct me, though, if I am wrong and clarify your position. If I am in error, point it out.

I leave you to your thoughts. I don’t feel like conversing with you today.

 

[RPRPsych]

And again, read the previous posts, both mine and others. The Catechism does not conflict with the teaching on reprobation, as it is easily understood as rejecting Calvinist double-predestination.

The Catechism is a catechetical tool, not a theological one. We have volumes of writings from theologians and Church councils on predestination and reprobation. It is hardly possible to capture all the nuances of these tough mysteries in a catechetical one-liner.

Quite right! The Catechism is not meant to address this issue, any more than it is meant to contain fine details of, say, Franciscan spirituality or the interpretation of the Book of the Prophet Habakkuk.

(I just wanted to type “Habakkuk” in a post, to be honest. Isn’t it a cool name? )

 

[zab]

I doubt that. Nowhere in your post did you affirm God’s sovereignty and your statement that God does not put limits on the saved appears on the surface to deny the immutability of the number of the predestined.

But all in all, I am the one who does not know what you are saying. In fact, you didn’t make it clear what your position on the matter of predestination is, but the tone of your post suggests you’re leaning towards a position against it.

Correct me, though, if I am wrong and clarify your position. If I am in error, point it out.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P71.HTM#R

[INDENT

IV. Christian Holiness

2012 "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. and those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."64

2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66

In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ’s gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints.67

2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called “mystical” because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - “the holy mysteries” - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:

He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the “blessed hope” of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71
][/INDENT]

 

[kdbueno]

Of course it does, if it’s not, then hell would be full.