pre-marriage

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peduzzi89

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Hi,

This question actually doesn’t really apply to me, but I’ve always wondered, what is the official catholic teaching for the amount/type of physical intimacy between 2 unmarried individuals?

Thanks
 
hmmm…this is a bit of a toughy, ive heard it put to me several ways, that ‘arousal is spousal’ or that we should ‘not see how close we can bring them to the line, but how far we can keep them from the line’ the line of course being how far we can go

the most direct answer ive ever gotten was from a priest who said that french kissing seems to be too far

i dont know of any Church standing on this particular matter, but i would say anything that brings about lust would be a stopping point. so i guess it differs for each individual. a meter stick i would apply for judging such actions is this: the less love their is in the act, the worse it becomes. or to put it another way: when it stops being about love, and starts being about physical pleasure, its the stopping point
 
I guess what I’m wondering if there’s any specific Catholic dogma on the matter, because I’ve seen some people who make out and are very touchy-feely but in a supremely loving way, and yet others who do those things simply out of the physical pleasure. Where does arousal is spousal come from? Especially since arousal is very often involuntary. It’s just a matter of great curiosity because the only specific rule I know of is no intercourse til marriage. Even though I know not a single person who intends to carry out this rule, I’ve always wondered which stuff before that is ok, and which stuff isn’t.
 
peduzzi89 said:
I guess what I’m wondering if there’s any specific Catholic dogma on the matter, because I’ve seen some people who make out and are very touchy-feely but in a supremely loving way, and yet others who do those things simply out of the physical pleasure. Where does arousal is spousal come from? Especially since arousal is very often involuntary. It’s just a matter of great curiosity because the only specific rule I know of is no intercourse til marriage. Even though I know not a single person who intends to carry out this rule, I’ve always wondered which stuff before that is ok, and which stuff isn’t.
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It is not just intercourse that is forbidden before marriage. Every sexual act is forbidden, whether it is intercourse, touching the private parts of another person, masturbation or whatever.
Its true that arousal can sometimes be involuntary but the second you realise you are aroused you should do something to stop it.
Your expression “making out and touchy feely” by definition implies a couple are at the very least passionately kissing and getting aroused so I would say that is not allowed but on this I would defer to more knowledgable posters.
 
thistle said:
It is not just intercourse that is forbidden before marriage. Every sexual act is forbidden, whether it is intercourse, touching the private parts of another person, masturbation or whatever.
Its true that arousal can sometimes be involuntary but the second you realise you are aroused you should do something to stop it.
Your expression “making out and touchy feely” by definition implies a couple are at the very least passionately kissing and getting aroused so I would say that is not allowed but on this I would defer to more knowledgable posters.
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Anything leading to arousal is not allowed. And so, kissing beyond a peck on the cheek, cuddling, etc. is not allowed.

It’s a sin to delight in being aroused when you are not married.

Anything that is a near occasion of sin is not allowed, and so, acts which directly do not arouse sexual desire but lead to it, nearly or all of the time, are not allowed.

Purity is a great virtue. 🙂
 
Until you are married to that person, do not do anything you would not do in front of your priest, both sets of parents and your sunday school class.
 
Wow, surprising to say the least. Mostly because 0% of the people I know, bar none (as in not a single person i’ve ever met, ever) has ever followed that rule to that extreme…and my whole family is catholic and at least half of the people I know are catholic. It was just a thought I have because I’ve never heard of anyone younger than my grandparents who never did anything more than a peck on the cheek before marriage.
 
peduzzi89 said:
Wow, surprising to say the least. Mostly because 0% of the people I know, bar none (as in not a single person i’ve ever met, ever) has ever followed that rule to that extreme…and my whole family is catholic and at least half of the people I know are catholic. It was just a thought I have because I’ve never heard of anyone younger than my grandparents who never did anything more than a peck on the cheek before marriage.
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The simple truth is that most Catholics aren’t living the Faith fully. They do what they want. This is a time of great corruption.
 
Sad that you have had no examples of living the Chrisitan life. I know people who have sinned and kept sinning, people who have sinned and then stopped and people (both Catholic and non-catholic Christians) who have lived chastity while unmarried.

Prayers you can be an example of chastity to those around you!
 
This does kind of apply to me as I need some advice before I go to Mass tomorrow…is kissing/cuddling (I guess what you might call “heavy petting”) a mortal sin or does it count as a venial sin if it’s not actual intercourse before marriage?
I feel wretched as I really want to receive Communion and be in God’s grace but I had a bit of a slip last night and am not sure if I have to do full sacramental Confession first, or if it’s a venial sin and can be forgiven during Mass without having to confess to the Priest 😦
Help is greatly appreciated!
 
rowenacg said:
This does kind of apply to me as I need some advice before I go to Mass tomorrow…is kissing/cuddling (I guess what you might call “heavy petting”) a mortal sin or does it count as a venial sin if it’s not actual intercourse before marriage?
I feel wretched as I really want to receive Communion and be in God’s grace but I had a bit of a slip last night and am not sure if I have to do full sacramental Confession first, or if it’s a venial sin and can be forgiven during Mass without having to confess to the Priest 😦
Help is greatly appreciated!
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As a baseline all sins of lust, even looks, are mortal, though the usual circumstances that mitigate apply.

I recommend normally confessing all sins involving lust before receiving Communion, even if they may be mitigated. A person should go to Communion clean, not tainted by that stuff.

And you have to learn to -hate- that sin, not just allow it to exist passively or half-heartedly resist it. You have to hate it and fear it, and the occasion that leads to it, to beat it.

Before marriage, giving into this stuff is delighting in stuff that is only proper -for marriage-, as a lead up to the marital act itself, for producing children. Having this stuff outside of marriage creates an attachment that should not yet exist that also glosses over genuine incompatibilities a couple has, that, once the romance dies, will still exist and may break a relationship too much glued together by lust.

The more you do this stuff outside of marriage the less intense it is, also, and so, the less you have to give whomever you marry and the less glue there is with whoever you marry in the end.
 
Reading these posts reminds me of a problem I have. It is very hard for me at times to draw the line between venial and mortal sins. Some sins are obvious and many times the Holy Spirit spells it out for me. There have been times that I went to communion and had doubts. Small doubts, but doubts never the less. Some good reading :confused::confused::confused:material or a thread would be helpful to me and maybe to others. God bless CA
 
Ben_F said:
Reading these posts reminds me of a problem I have. It is very hard for me at times to draw the line between venial and mortal sins. Some sins are obvious and many times the Holy Spirit spells it out for me. There have been times that I went to communion and had doubts. Small doubts, but doubts never the less. Some good reading :confused::confused::confused:material or a thread would be helpful to me and maybe to others. God bless CA
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St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori has written on how to discern when sins are mortal and when they are not in your thoughts, and also there is an instruction book for priests on how the Confessional works, which is useful for laymen to read too, on the Saints’ Books website.

Here’s some of St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori’s ‘Abridged Sermons for All Sundays’:

“A person sins by complacency, when he does not desire to commit the sinful act, but delights in it as if he had committed it. This complacency is called morose delectation. It is called morose, not because the complacency in the thought of the unchaste acts lasts for a considerable time, but because the will dwells with delight on the thought. Hence the sin of complacency may, as St. Thomas teaches, be committed in a moment. “It is called morose,” says the holy Doctor, “not be cause one fakes pleasure for some time in the impure act, but because the will is resolved to dwell on the thought which it should reject at once.” he says " libenter” (" with pleasure") to remove scruples from persons of timorous conscience, who suffer against their will certain carnal motions and delights, although they do all in their power to banish them. Though the inferior part should feel a certain delight, as long as the will does not consent, there is no sin, at least no mortal sin."

There are different levels of consent, partial, full, etc. And different methods of combating different kinds of temptations. The saints are the best source for learning the gravity of sins and methods of combating them successfully. 🙂
 
Thank you for your help and wisdom, Shin.
I’m not sure the extent to which it’s mitigated by the fact that I was feeling lonely/vulnerable and looking for emotional comfort in an old friend, who took it as a chance to try to push me further than I was willing to go. That said I should have resisted faster…I don’t know what to do.
I had been so good for so long, too, so it’s a big let-down, but this has shown me how important it is to keep strong and it will serve as a reminder of how to avoid those situations in the first place sigh
 
rowenacg said:
Thank you for your help and wisdom, Shin.
I’m not sure the extent to which it’s mitigated by the fact that I was feeling lonely/vulnerable and looking for emotional comfort in an old friend, who took it as a chance to try to push me further than I was willing to go. That said I should have resisted faster…I don’t know what to do.
I had been so good for so long, too, so it’s a big let-down, but this has shown me how important it is to keep strong and it will serve as a reminder of how to avoid those situations in the first place sigh
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Generally, before you go to Confession, if you commit a sin that is baseline mortal, I find it best to make the very best act of contrition you can.

Even with venial sins… quick repentance is best…

But with serious matter… most notably… Try for that ‘perfect act of contrition’, complete hatred of the sin and rejection of it, for the sake of the love of God solely, and not even out of any fear of Hell, but because you love Him, and He does not deserve the slightest sin from thee.

Tears wash away much… and at least the desire for them is a great help.

A perfect act of contrition always contains within it the desire to go to Confession to be set perfectly right with God.

While one may not know if it was sufficient ahead of time for one’s soul, at least, it is a great help. And it prepares one to be more perfectly in the proper state of mind one should always be…

Which is exactly that… you love God so much… the slightest sin, you would not do. 😃

You have my prayers! 🙂

‘Why persist in walking difficult and toilsome paths? There is no repose where you are seeking it. Search as you like, it is not where you are looking. You are seeking a happy life in the realm of death, and it will not be found there. How could life be happy where there is no life at all?’

St. Augustine

Heart of Jesus, Victim of charity, make me a living sacrifice to Thee, holy, and pleasing unto God.
 
The sixth commandment forbids all words looks and actions contrary to holy purity. The ninth fotbids all impure thoughts willfully entertained or concented to.
We men have a moral obligation to make sure that the lady we are going with can feel safe and secure when in our company and that we do not cause them or ourselves to commit sin.
I am in a relationship with a lady who is a devout catholic which I am also and these are the standards I have set. She is totally at ease when in my company because she knows in her Heart that she is morally safe.

That is what God wants us to do and what we must do

Antrim
 
Shin said:
Generally, before you go to Confession, if you commit a sin that is baseline mortal, I find it best to make the very best act of contrition you can.
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This is certainly an interesting concept.

What it isn’t though, is Catholic. There is no such thing as a “baseline mortal” sin.

A grave sin, which the Catholic Church does teach exists, is not per se mortal unless the right conditions apply.

Quit trying to pile guilt on other people with heretical concepts.
 
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