Pre-nuptial investigation

[Phemie]

Has anyone here ever heard of the parents of the couple having to come in and sign a form attesting to the Baptism and Freedom to marry of the couple?

I stumbled into this last week when a non-Catholic mother of the bride called the office and told me she’d been told to she had to come in and fill out Form II and have it sent to the priest who was preparing her DD & fiancé for Marriage.

I pulled out my copy of the diocesan pre-nup investigation and Form II is the petition for a dispensation for disparity of cult (wouldn’t even be necessary in this case, bride is Anglican) and certainly has nothing to do with the mother of the bride. I asked her to talk to her daughter again and clarify just what she needed because I’d never heard of this before.

Today pastor calls me and he’s livid. He’s just received a call from the young couple’s priest who explained that Form II was a requirement in their diocese. Apparently the couple answering all the questions under oath at their first pre-nup visit is not good enough. Pastor was very angry at what he feels is a lack of respect for the couple’s honesty.

Anyone here familiar with this requirement?

 

[duskyjewel]

When we got married, we had to have witnesses, and parents make the most sense, sign forms attesting that we were both baptized Catholics and free to marry. This was in L.A. Archdiocese, California.

P.S. If the bride is Anglican and the groom is Catholic, why wouldn’t they need the dispensation for disparity of cult? They have one…

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Has anyone here ever heard of the parents of the couple having to come in and sign a form attesting to the Baptism and Freedom to marry of the couple?
. . .

In former times [through the mid 20th century] the bans were read at mass in the prospective bride’s and the groom’s parishes. This called on any one who knew of any impediment to their marriage, e.g. previous marriages, to come forward. It is now recognized that people move so much that members of a particular parish are unlikely to know the status of other parish members. So sworn statements by two witnesses who do know the history of the couple have been instituted instead, though the formality of the bans is still observed in many places.

 

[Phemie]

In former times [through the mid 20th century] the bans were read at mass in the prospective bride’s and the groom’s parishes. This called on any one who knew of any impediment to their marriage, e.g. previous marriages, to come forward. It is now recognized that people move so much that members of a particular parish are unlikely to know the status of other parish members. So sworn statements by two witnesses who do know the history of the couple have been instituted instead, though the formality of the bans is still observed in many places.

So it’s not something that their bishop pulled out of his hat? It’s done in many dioceses? We’d never heard of this until today.

 

[puzzleannie]

from particular law of the diocese
among other requirements including Pre-nup investigation, recent baptismal cert and dispensations, if needed (& license of course)

two affidavits of free status for each of the future spouses. If one of the parties is under 18, an affidavit must be signed by at least one parent, and a completed parental consent form filed with the County Clerk. The affidavits of free status must be witnessed, and parents are usual witness, but must be someone who knows the parties.

date for wedding cannot be set until initial interview is complete and freedom to marry ahs been established

 

[cameron_lansing]

So it’s not something that their bishop pulled out of his hat? It’s done in many dioceses? We’d never heard of this until today.

The complementary legislation of the Episcopal Conference of the US provides for it. See usccb.org/norms/1067.htm . I do not know what the Canadian Conference has established though.

 

[AJV]

P.S. If the bride is Anglican and the groom is Catholic, why wouldn’t they need the dispensation for disparity of cult? They have one…

They wouldn’t need a dispensation for ‘disparity of cult’. Disparity of Cult is when one of the persons is unbaptised. Or perhaps ‘ad cautelam’ if there is some doubt about the baptism.

 

[Phemie]

P.S. If the bride is Anglican and the groom is Catholic, why wouldn’t they need the dispensation for disparity of cult? They have one…

That’s a simple mixed marriage. Disparity of cult is when one isn’t baptized. In our diocese the pastor can give permission for a mixed marriage, it doesn’t require a dispensation from the bishop.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

DH and I had to have forms signed by our parents attesting to the fact that we were free to marry, we had been baptized, and whether or not our parents agreed with the marriage.

This was in addition to the disparity of cult that we had to do.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

from particular law of the diocese
among other requirements including Pre-nup investigation, recent baptismal cert and dispensations, if needed (& license of course)

two affidavits of free status for each of the future spouses. If one of the parties is under 18, an affidavit must be signed by at least one parent, and a completed parental consent form filed with the County Clerk. The affidavits of free status must be witnessed, and parents are usual witness, but must be someone who knows the parties.

date for wedding cannot be set until initial interview is complete and freedom to marry ahs been established

This is the way it is here, except they don’t get the license until a couple days before the ceremony. There used to be a archdiocese requirement that a couple under the age of 21 had to have a parent sign a form that the parents were aware the under 21 party was getting married, unless it would result in abuse by the parents.

 

[Julianna]

You have got to be kidding me! I have never heard of anything like that.

When my DH and I met with our priest in '81, he just asked for our baptismal certificates (we brought them with us) and that at least one of us has made their confirmation. (my husband did). Our priest contacted the church where he made his confirmation in Ysplanti, MI and with just a phone call it was a go from there.

When my brother and sil got married, I went with my sister in law as she had some questions to ask the priest as to what she needed. She heard wild stories too about what is needed in order to marry a Catholic. I told her to bring her dedication papers from her church…and if she had some type of certificate when she was baptized at age 12. She didn’t have one and was scared to death when we saw the priest. He asked her, “What church were you baptised in, and was it in this area?” She said, “yes”…she gave him the phone number of her pastor…our priest called him, “hey, how are you, this is Fr. so and so, a lovely young lady from your church is sitting here with me and I need you to verify that she had been baptised in your church…her name is…”

The pastor said yes…she was. It was a done deal. They were married in the Catholic Church in 1990.

In 1956 my mother had to go through gaunlet to get dispensation. The priest in the diocese of Springfield, MA said he wasn’t so sure he wanted to marry them even though they went through all the paperwork. My dad said, “Fine, we’ll marry in the Baptist church…her preacher told us to come on over.” Dad went on to tell the priest how his mom and dad, immigrants from Italy poured their pennies and time into the church and that he may have instilled fear into them, but he (my dad) wasn’t buying the scare tactics. They were married in that church, but not by that priest at my dad’s request.

 

[Phemie]

Thank you for all the replies.

I told my pastor of the USCCB rules and the comparison to the banns and it made much more sense to him – also made it much easier to explain the requirement to the non-Catholic mom-of-the-bride who was coming to see him last night to fill out the form (which was faxed to us by the bride’s pastor).

It was the first time we’d run into this and I’m not aware of anything from the CCCB on this subject.

Julianna, this seems to be a fairly recent requirement which does make sense and it’s for all couples, not just those in which one of the parties is a non-Catholic.

When you think about it, it would be easy in this day and age, when each person may have moved several times in the years before they present to the parish and ask to marry, for the couple to conceal a previous marriage – the parish has no way to check. Asking for 2 affidavits from those who know the persons well is one way of double checking.

BTW, in 1956 in many parishes, a mixed-marriage would have taken place outside the church proper, more likely in the sacristy which often had a small altar and where Mass would sometimes be celebrated.

 

[puzzleannie]

thanks for the testimony but personal experience and 3rd party anecdotes are not canon law. the bishop’s have a new link on marriage which answers a lot of these questions, and good prep resources usccb.org, and almost every diocese has their particular law and info on marriage and annulments on their website. Might as well find out what law pertains now, 2008, rather than what pertained decades ago. I will be willing to bet however, that the very same people who complain about paperwork and jumping thru hoops to get married, are the ones who complain about the Church making annulments too easy.

 

[duskyjewel]

Sorry, I was mistaken about what disparity of cult is…

 

[Chatter163]

This was being done in the mid-1980’s at my parish–nothing new there.

 

[KathleenElsie]

The parish that you were baptized in holds all of your official records. This is true no matter how old you are or how many times you moved. If someone was ever married in the Catholic Church or given permission to marry by the Church outside of the Church the records will be there. Not sure how far back they go. I do know they go back as far as the late 1950’s.

 

[Phemie]

The parish that you were baptized in holds all of your official records. This is true no matter how old you are or how many times you moved. If someone was ever married in the Catholic Church or given permission to marry by the Church outside of the Church the records will be there. Not sure how far back they go. I do know they go back as far as the late 1950’s.

All well and good if both parties are Catholic & have never been legally married. The minute you insert a non-Catholic into the mix you have nothing to verify and even with two Catholics, they might have married with total disregard for canonical form. In those cases you’d still have to investigate before you marry them.

I also know that things aren’t always recorded in the Register of Baptism, for whatever reason. My hometown parish’s registers were notoriously incomplete in that regard as I discovered when those from 1858-1920 were published as a historical society project.

I find the same problem with the registers I work with all the time. If I depend only on the baptism register I have to assume that most of the couples I know who were baptized in this parish are not in fact married since no notation of their marriage has ever been made in their baptismal record.

 

[Brendan]

That’s a simple mixed marriage. Disparity of cult is when one isn’t baptized. In our diocese the pastor can give permission for a mixed marriage, it doesn’t require a dispensation from the bishop.

No, it still is a Disparity of Cult. That is true whenever one of the parties is not in full Communion with Rome.

Can. 1124 Without express permission of the competent authority, a marriage is prohibited between two baptized persons of whom one is baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is enrolled in a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Canon 1125 allows the Bishop to dispense from this, and the bishop may have delegated permission to the pastors in the case of both parties being Baptized, as those are simply given for ‘just’ reasons.

But it still requires a dispensation for disparity of cult.

 

[cameron_lansing]

No, it still is a Disparity of Cult. That is true whenever one of the parties is not in full Communion with Rome. Canon 1125 allows the Bishop to dispense from this, and the bishop may have delegated permission to the pastors in the case of both parties being Baptized, as those are simply given for ‘just’ reasons. But it still requires a dispensation for disparity of cult.

Notice that canon 1086 is under the chapter of “diriment impediments” whereas canons 1124-1125 are under the chapter of "mixed marriage. There is a distinction.

Disparity of cult only pertains to the marriage of a Catholic to an unbaptized party. The impediment is treated in canon 1086§1, and a dispensation is needed for validity.

On the other hand, canons 1124- 1125 and following speak to a mixed marriage (the other party is baptized) and there a permission is needed for the liceity of marriage. The implicit notion is that enrollment into another Church or ecclesial community not in full communion is effected by baptism.

The confusion may arise because canon 1086 also calls for the “cautiones” of canons 1125-1126 to be fulfilled

 

[Phemie]

No, it still is a Disparity of Cult. That is true whenever one of the parties is not in full Communion with Rome.

Canon 1125 allows the Bishop to dispense from this, and the bishop may have delegated permission to the pastors in the case of both parties being Baptized, as those are simply given for ‘just’ reasons.

But it still requires a dispensation for disparity of cult.

No, a simple mixed-marriage between a Catholic and a baptized Christian is not a ‘disparity of cult’ marriage as defined by Canon Law. Can 1129 states clearly that the laws that apply to a ‘mixed marriage’ must ALSO be applied to a ‘disparity of cult’ marriage so obviously they’re not the same.

Also, there are two separate forms, one a ‘permission for a mixed-marriage’ which, in our diocese can be granted by the pastor and applies only to a marriage between a Catholic and a validly baptized non-Catholic; and the other, a 'dispensation for disparity of cult/worship which applies to a Catholic marrying a non-baptized person and which can only be granted by the Bishop or VG.

Can. 1129 The prescripts of cann. ⇒ 1127 and ⇒ 1128 must be applied also to marriages which the impediment of disparity of cult mentioned in ⇒ can. 1086, §1 impedes.

Can. 1086 §1. A marriage between two persons, one of whom has been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it and has not defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is not baptized, is invalid.