Pre-nuptial investigation

[Brendan]

On the other hand, canons 1124- 1125 and following speak to a mixed marriage (the other party is baptized) and there a permission is needed for the liceity of marriage. The implicit notion is that enrollment into another Church or ecclesial community not in full communion is effected by baptism.

That is not true, a marriage conducted absent this dispensation is invalid due to Lack of Canonical Form.

Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are** valid **

 

[Christy_Beth]

Well, I’m not planning on getting married (I don’t even have a boyfriend!), but I read this in almost shock. I am a convert who is divorced. That was well before I converted to Catholicism. Being the only Catholic in the family, and not knowing anyone who would fill out the forms, what would I have to do if I ever wanted to get married?

 

[Phemie]

Well, I’m not planning on getting married (I don’t even have a boyfriend!), but I read this in almost shock. I am a convert who is divorced. That was well before I converted to Catholicism. Being the only Catholic in the family, and not knowing anyone who would fill out the forms, what would I have to do if I ever wanted to get married?

I’m sorry my question has caused you to be upset. The form only needs to be filled out by someone who knows you well, not necessarily a Catholic. It could be a parent, a sibling, a godparent or a good friend.

You say you are divorced. You might want to discuss that with a priest before you are in a situation to look at marriage.

 

[Phemie]

cameron_lansing;3723511:

On the other hand, canons 1124- 1125 and following speak to a mixed marriage (the other party is baptized) and there a permission is needed for the liceity of marriage

. The implicit notion is that enrollment into another Church or ecclesial community not in full communion is effected by baptism.

That is not true, a marriage conducted absent this dispensation is invalid due to Lack of Canonical Form.

I’m sure Cameron Lansing will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think in a diocese where the bishop hasn’t delegated it to the priests to give permission for a mixed marriage a priest could illicitly but validly witness a mixed-marriage. It would not lack canonical form which means witnessed by a priest/deacon and according to the Catholic Rite.

Permission is required for a mixed-marriage, a dispensation is required for a disparity of cult/worship marriage.

 

[Phemie]

cameron_lansing;3723511:

On the other hand, canons 1124- 1125 and following speak to a mixed marriage (the other party is baptized) and there a permission is needed for the liceity of marriage

. The implicit notion is that enrollment into another Church or ecclesial community not in full communion is effected by baptism.

That is not true, a marriage conducted absent this dispensation is invalid due to Lack of Canonical Form.

You’re mixing apples and turnips.

Canonical Form refers to marrying in the Catholic Church, according to the Catholic Rite in the presence of a priest/deacon or in some cases a lay person appointed by the bishop with Rome’s permission.

As I understand Cameron Lansing’s post, if a priest witnessed the wedding of an Anglican and a Catholic without first obtaining the bishop’s permission for a mixed-marriage (in a diocese where priests can’t grant that permission themselves) the result would be a valid, but illicit, marriage.

OTOH, if he witnessed the wedding of a Catholic and a Salvation Army member, without a dispensation for disparity of cult/worship, the result would be an invalid marriage.

 

[Julianna]

Wow…all this to marry a non Catholic. All it took was phone call for my sil and phone call verification to MI for my husband.

 

[Phemie]

Wow…all this to marry a non Catholic. All it took was phone call for my sil and phone call verification to MI for my husband.

The thing is that all this looks complicated when it’s written down but it’s all done by the priest, usually without even a mention to the couple. The only people I’ve known to have any kind of dispensation refused are my parents. They needed a dispensation for consanguinity (they were 1/2 first cousins, they shared a grandmother) and their bishop refused to grant it. Their pastor argued with him and eventually the dispensation was granted.

All it took for me was to bring my fiancé’s certificate of baptism & sign a paper saying I promised to raise any child we were blessed with in the Catholic faith. I’m sure in '75 the priest had to ask our Bishop’s permission for me to marry a member of the United Church of Canada. But… I was a regular worshipper in the parish of my birth, baptism & confirmation. The priest saw me in church every week unless I was working. Plus, they published banns for 3 weeks before the wedding, calling for anyone who knew of a reason why we couldn’t be married in the Church to come forward and reveal it.

My kids, OTOH, lived in 7 different places, with pastors that changed at least every 3 years. 2 have never lived in the parish where they were baptized and are unknown to all but a handful of people in that parish (and that handful really knows little of my adult children’s day to day lives) so publishing banns would mean nothing. It only makes sense that if they decided to get married in the Church, the Church would require more than an annotated certificate of baptism, but would require their dad’s, siblings’ or my witness that they are baptized and are free to marry.

 

[cameron_lansing]

. . .You’re mixing apples and turnips. . .

. . . Canonical Form refers to marrying in the Catholic Church, according to the Catholic Rite in the presence of a priest/deacon or in some cases a lay person appointed by the bishop with Rome’s permission.

As I understand Cameron Lansing’s post, if a priest witnessed the wedding of an Anglican and a Catholic without first obtaining the bishop’s permission for a mixed-marriage (in a diocese where priests can’t grant that permission themselves) the result would be a valid, but illicit, marriage…

Brendan,

Phemie is quite correct. Dispensations from impediment, permission for mixed marriage, and the observance of canonical form or its dispensation, are different notions. All or just some may apply in any given concrete situation.

Although I like both apples and turnips and I’m certain there’s a nice recipe that involves both, no canonical mixing of fruits and vegetables is entailed in my post but rather a proper separation.

 

[Phemie]

Brendan,

Phemie is quite correct. Dispensations from impediment, permission for mixed marriage, and the observance of canonical form or its dispensation, are different notions. All or just some may apply in any given concrete situation.

Although I like both apples and turnips and I’m certain there’s a nice recipe that involves both, no canonical mixing of fruits and vegetables is entailed in my post but rather a proper separation.

I’m the one who brought up apples and turnips, in response to Brendan’s post – or so I thought. Sorry, I haven’t figured out quite how to insert 2 separate quotes.

 

[Just_Lurking]

OTOH, if he witnessed the wedding of a Catholic and a Salvation Army member, without a dispensation for disparity of cult/worship, the result would be an invalid marriage.

And the invalid marriage would be due to the diriment impediment of disparity of cult, not because of any lack of canonical form. So for the annulment, the documentary processes would be required at a minimum.

 

[Phemie]

Originally Posted by Phemie
OTOH, if he witnessed the wedding of a Catholic and a Salvation Army member, without a dispensation for disparity of cult/worship, the result would be an invalid marriage.

Exactly, the marriage would be presumed valid until it was proven that the necessary dispensation was not granted. In a lack of canonical form situation, the marriage is NOT presumed valid.