Pre-Nuptual agreements and Annulment process

[JRKH]

This just popped into my head the other day and thought I’d ask…

Would the violation of a Pre-Nuptual agreement be grounds for an Annulment.

I suspect that this would largely depend on the terms of the agreement and whether it could be shown to fit one of the other criteria, but thought I’d get the opinion of the good folks here.

Not a lot of info here I know…but feel free to just jump in…

Peace
James

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Depending on what’s in the the actual prenuptial agreement and the purpose for having one, I could see the prenup invalidating the marriage altogether.

Think about it. Marriages are supposed to be until death do you part. Why do the majority of couples get prenups now? To protect them in the event of divorce. This would bring into question what the intent was going into the marriage to begin with.

I’m no canonist, though.

 

[Leegal]

Prenuptial agreements are a matter of civil law, so Catholic canon law does not rule them out in principle (for example, to determine how property would be divided among the children of a prior marriage upon the death of one spouse).

In practice, prenuptials may run afoul of Church law in a number of ways. For example, they cannot subject a marriage to a condition concerning the future (such as an agreement about the dividing of assets in case of divorce). The Code of Canon Law provides: “A marriage subject to a condition about the future cannot be contracted validly.” (CIC 1102)

The Canon Law: Letter and Spirit, a commentary on canon law, explains that condition may be defined as “a stipulation by which an agreement is made contingent upon the verification or fulfillment of some circumstance or event that is not yet certain.” It goes on to state that “any condition concerning the future attached to matrimonial consent renders marriage invalid.” **For example, a marriage would be invalid if the parties stipulated that they must have children or they have the right to divorce and remarry someone else. **

(I take this last to mean that the marriage is condition that the parties must have children. As we know, conditions can come up in the future and miscarriages result or one or the other becomes infertile due to a medical condition such as a hysterectomy for cancer. One cannot place such a future condition based on unknown future circumstances, so it would not be the hysterectomy for cancer that invalidated the marriage, but that such a condition (the woman must bear children) could be placed before marriage when the future is unknown.)

I can see the validity of a pre-nup when there’s children from a prior marriage who need to be protected and provided for should the parent die, but you cannot make the assumption on a divorce in the future either.

 

[FAB]

This just popped into my head the other day and thought I’d ask…

Would the violation of a Pre-Nuptual agreement be grounds for an Annulment.

I suspect that this would largely depend on the terms of the agreement and whether it could be shown to fit one of the other criteria, but thought I’d get the opinion of the good folks here.

Not a lot of info here I know…but feel free to just jump in…

Peace
James

A pre-nup would be a reason that I would not witness a marriage. The very existence or feel for the need to have one indicates that the couple is not entering the marriage with the idea “until death do we part” . It’s one of those no starters like we don’t plan any children.

 

[BettyBoop416]

A pre-nup would be a reason that I would not witness a marriage. The very existence or feel for the need to have one indicates that the couple is not entering the marriage with the idea “until death do we part.”

My husband is one of three partners in a professional services firm. In their partnership agreement is a clause that requires any partner who gets married to have a pre-nup that would protect the other partners in the business in the unfortunate event of a divorce. When we were talking marriage, I have to admit that this left a very bad taste in my mouth. After further consideration, however, I realized that it made sense. It made sense to my priest too when I explained the circumstances.

 

[puzzleannie]

This just popped into my head the other day and thought I’d ask…

Would the violation of a Pre-Nuptual agreement be grounds for an Annulment.

entering into a pre-nup would probably invalidate the marriage from its inception, and I don’t think any priest would knowingly witness such a marriage.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

A pre-nup would be a reason that I would not witness a marriage. The very existence or feel for the need to have one indicates that the couple is not entering the marriage with the idea “until death do we part” . It’s one of those no starters like we don’t plan any children.

Not necessarily, pre-nups sometimes deal with what happens to property/money and probate rights in the event of the death of one of the spouses. This is most common in second marriages of older couples with adult children.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

This just popped into my head the other day and thought I’d ask…

Would the violation of a Pre-Nuptual agreement be grounds for an Annulment.

Pre-Nuptual agreements would have zero impact on the sacrament. In fact, placing conditions on consent of marriage can invalidate the consent.

 

[JRKH]

Pre-Nuptual agreements would have zero impact on the sacrament. In fact, placing conditions on consent of marriage can invalidate the consent.

Can I plead stupid…
I don’t really understand what you are saying here in the bolded…Could you clarify what is “placing conditions on consent…”?

Peace
James

 

[FrDavid96]

This just popped into my head the other day and thought I’d ask…

Would the violation of a Pre-Nuptual agreement be grounds for an Annulment.

I suspect that this would largely depend on the terms of the agreement and whether it could be shown to fit one of the other criteria, but thought I’d get the opinion of the good folks here.

Not a lot of info here I know…but feel free to just jump in…

Peace
James

Here’s one example:

A couple has a pre-nuptial agreement in which they both agree to be open to the possibility of children.

After the marriage ceremony, one spouse reveals not being open to this possibility.

Grounds for a petition for annulment? I think so.

Another:
One potential spouse has some serious health problems.
The other is wealthy.
The pre-nup states that the wealthy one will not withhold funding for necessary health care costs. Not as a condition for the marriage (c. 1102) but as a quality of the person directly and principally intended (c. 1097.2)
After the ceremony, the wealthy one declines to pay the bills.

Grounds for a petition for annulment? I think so.

Not all pre-nups are about “what happens if this doesn’t work out.”

 

[FrDavid96]

Can I plead stupid…
I don’t really understand what you are saying here in the bolded…Could you clarify what is “placing conditions on consent…”?

Peace
James

Not directed to me, but I’ll try anyway

It’s actually pretty straightforward.

One spouse says “I promise to…till death do us part…or until you go bald, whichever comes first.”

In other words “I marry you, on the condition that you never lose your hair”

That would invalidate consent.

 

[TheMc]

Not directed to me, but I’ll try anyway

It’s actually pretty straightforward.

One spouse says “I promise to…till death do us part…or until you go bald, whichever comes first.”

In other words “I marry you, on the condition that you never lose your hair”

That would invalidate consent.

Aren’t they more commonly something to the effect of:

“I promise to…till death do us part…but if we divorce, I get my car back.”

 

[FrDavid96]

Aren’t they more commonly something to the effect of:

“I promise to…till death do us part…but if we divorce, I get my car back.”

Yes, that kind of agreement is the usual basis for a pre-nuptial; but not always.

The particular post of mine that you quoted was about conditions placed on consent, not about the possibility that the marriage might end in divorce.

A pre-nup that says “if we get divorced, I get the car back” would not be a condition on consent as such, it would be more of a lack of intent to marry for life.

On the other hand, “if you try to sell my car, I get to seek a divorce” would be a condition placed on consent.

Same end result (not a valid marriage) just a different reason.

 

[TheMc]

Yes, that kind of agreement is the usual basis for a pre-nuptial; but not always.

The particular post of mine that you quoted was about conditions placed on consent, not about the possibility that the marriage might end in divorce.

A pre-nup that says “if we get divorced, I get the car back” would not be a condition on consent as such, it would be more of a lack of intent to marry for life.

On the other hand, “if you try to sell my car, I get to seek a divorce” would be a condition placed on consent.

Same end result (not a valid marriage) just a different reason.

Us guys and our cars.

 

[puzzleannie]

Not necessarily, pre-nups sometimes deal with what happens to property/money and probate rights in the event of the death of one of the spouses. This is most common in second marriages of older couples with adult children.

and they are usually uneccesary in such cases since proper estate planning takes care of these problems. If a pre-nup considers the possibility of divorce it will probably invalidate the marriage. the same applies to business partnerships, there are insurance vehicles and methods of ownership that make pre-nups unneccessary

 

[JRKH]

If I am reading the responses correctly, it sounds like the concept of a pre-nuptual agreement is not a problem but -
Depending on what it contains it could later be used as evidence of prior intent.

(Just for the record, I’m not a big fan of pre-nupual agreements in general…But I do see where they can be useful in certain cases)

If I may be permitted another question/thought…
On second thought - I’ll start a new thread for this question…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

This question builds off of another thread on Pre-nuptual agreements and Annulments…

What would you think of something equivalent to a “pre-nuptual agreement” being used by the Church in the Pre-Cana Programs as a “pro-active” step on the part of the Church to build stronger marriages, reduce the number of divorces and consequent annulments?

Consider the extensive questionnaire that is filled out by one applying for an annulment. In my case, If I remember correctly, it was something like 43 or 45 essay questions that took considerable time to thoughtfully and truthfully answer.

Why not use the same concept/principle in the pre-cana process?
Maybe not a questionnaire to be filled out, but rather something that contains teachings - expectations, as well as some questions where each page or “concept” must be initialed and then the entire booklet signed off on. The couple would receive a copy and the parish would retain a copy to be filed with the marriage record.

As a beginning thought - the process could look at the primary reasons for annulments being granted, and then begin building a pre-cana “agreement” on these.

Thoughts??

Peace
James

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

The couple needs to be aware that the Church’s understanding of marriage is that it is a commitment in which the couple is expected to be faithful, lasting until death, and open to children. Usually the parish priest makes that known during the “premarital investigation.”

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

and they are usually uneccesary in such cases since proper estate planning takes care of these problems.

Yes and no. Estate planning, depending on the state and circumstances, can be a nightmare and wills can be contested. So sometimes its best to have as much as possible in writing. Like I said, older couples with children from prior marriages often have pre-nupts as an additional manner of assuring proper inheritance rights for their children.

If a pre-nup considers the possibility of divorce it will probably invalidate the marriage. the same applies to business partnerships, there are insurance vehicles and methods of ownership that make pre-nups unneccessary

They don’t necessarily invalidate the marriage. I buy car insurance but that doesn’t mean I intend or don’t care if I get into an accident. A pre-nupt could be entered into by someone who intends to stay married for life but fears what would happen if their spouse suddenly took off on them.

 

[maryjk]

Not necessarily, pre-nups sometimes deal with what happens to property/money and probate rights in the event of the death of one of the spouses. This is most common in second marriages of older couples with adult children.

Wouldn’t good estate planning take care of this?

and they are usually uneccesary in such cases since proper estate planning takes care of these problems. If a pre-nup considers the possibility of divorce it will probably invalidate the marriage. the same applies to business partnerships, there are insurance vehicles and methods of ownership that make pre-nups unneccessary

This is what I would have thought.

Yes and no. Estate planning, depending on the state and circumstances, can be a nightmare and wills can be contested. So sometimes its best to have as much as possible in writing. Like I said, older couples with children from prior marriages often have pre-nupts as an additional manner of assuring proper inheritance rights for their children.

They don’t necessarily invalidate the marriage. I buy car insurance but that doesn’t mean I intend or don’t care if I get into an accident. A pre-nupt could be entered into by someone who intends to stay married for life but fears what would happen if their spouse suddenly took off on them.

I get what you are saying here, but I find it hard to believe that a will is less binding than a pre-nup.

I would also question a couple that can’t trust each other enough to believe that the surviving spouse would make sure the children are taken care of. If someone doesn’t believe that stating something in their will is enough, they must also have a pre-nup, stating the same thing, wouldn’t that be cause to question their level of trust of their future spouse?