Pre-Nuptual agreements and Annulment process

[JRKH]

The couple needs to be aware that the Church’s understanding of marriage is that it is a commitment in which the couple is expected to be faithful, lasting until death, and open to children. Usually the parish priest makes that known during the “premarital investigation.”

Well - in the case of my previous marriage (can I say this since it never really existed???) The pre-cana was perfunctory at best. Of course we already had a child on the way - but also I was not quite 18 at the time…It might have been to our advantage had the priest (a good man by the way) had forced us to take more time on the matter and really think things through…
OK that’s my personal baggage…

The other thing is that there is there does not seem to be any “regular” or “documented” way to assure that the “premarital investigation” is done properly, thoroughly and consistently. We certainly never signed off on anything…
I’m not accusing anyone in this, simply proposing an idea that, especially given the state of Catechesis in this country and general cultural pressures, perhaps it would be good to have a more robust, consistent and documented form of pre-cana…

Peace
James

 

[joanofarc2008]

I think if someone had handed my xh the questions that are asked on the validity of marriage before we were married he still would have gone through with it as he still needed my money but I think I may have been able to see through the act a little bit better. I think each of those questions should be gone over. They are eye openers. I actually spoke to a Cradle Catholic yesterday that did not realize what the term “open to life” meant that one shouldn’t be introducing condoms into a marriage to prevent a “litter of kids.” Somehow I hope that would be covered on a pre-cana talk.

 

[stanczyk]

What you’re proposing sounds like a more thorough marriage preparation. I think that’s a great idea. I think it would be great if a marriage prep program required 45 essay questions, forcing the couple to truly think about why they are committing to one another and what that means. In today’s society where divorce is the norm, some extensive marriage prep is almost necessary to counteract the cultural understanding of marriage as a temporary institution. We need married couples to understand the eternal nature of marriage before getting involved in it.

But, that said, I think it’s wrong to call it a “prenuptial agreement.” The term “prenuptial agreement” implies an agreement between the couple for dealing with a divorce. Really the opposite of what we want to accomplish.

 

[Leegal]

This question builds off of another thread on Pre-nuptual agreements and Annulments…

What would you think of something equivalent to a “pre-nuptual agreement” being used by the Church in the Pre-Cana Programs as a “pro-active” step on the part of the Church to build stronger marriages, reduce the number of divorces and consequent annulments?

Consider the extensive questionnaire that is filled out by one applying for an annulment. In my case, If I remember correctly, it was something like 43 or 45 essay questions that took considerable time to thoughtfully and truthfully answer.

Why not use the same concept/principle in the pre-cana process?
Maybe not a questionnaire to be filled out, but rather something that contains teachings - expectations, as well as some questions where each page or “concept” must be initialed and then the entire booklet signed off on. The couple would receive a copy and the parish would retain a copy to be filed with the marriage record.

As a beginning thought - the process could look at the primary reasons for annulments being granted, and then begin building a pre-cana “agreement” on these.

Thoughts??

Peace
James

I would agree with something like this. Marriage is a huge step and many, like me, were not prepared or went into it with eyes closed.

I think such an examination of heart would help people understand that marriage does not replace a dysfunctional family, is not a way to get out of the house, is not a way to leave problems behind, is not to be used to run away from something, is not for the very young (most times), is not for the sheltered and those who have no experience with life, generally, not sexually, not for those who enter it it with the idea that a divorce will take care of everything, not for those who cheat and intend to cheat on their spouse. All reasons for annullment if one did not have the requisite capacity to enter into a valid marriage.

I wish I had understood this. In fact, the priest did – he refused to marry us so we never got to pre-Cana. The priest out and out refused. And had he explained his reasons, which I only now understand, I might have waited. Might.

 

[asd72]

I would think in general better education on Marriage for engaged couples will lead to decreased invalid marriages naturally. Getting them to sign off that they are aware of their responsibilities in Marriage is perhaps unnecessary, because if someone IS aware and later denies it in an annulment process, they are not fooling God are they, only themselves.

I know very little about annulments so I may be wrong, but that how I see it from what I have picked up.

 

[Leegal]

What you’re proposing sounds like a more thorough marriage preparation. I think that’s a great idea. I think it would be great if a marriage prep program required 45 essay questions, forcing the couple to truly think about why they are committing to one another and what that means. In today’s society where divorce is the norm, some extensive marriage prep is almost necessary to counteract the cultural understanding of marriage as a temporary institution. We need married couples to understand the eternal nature of marriage before getting involved in it.

But, that said, I think it’s wrong to call it a “prenuptial agreement.” The term “prenuptial agreement” implies an agreement between the couple for dealing with a divorce. Really the opposite of what we want to accomplish.

Not always. The Church allows pre-nups if one is free to marry but already has children that need to be protected in the event of death of the parent. If you use a pre-nup to draw up terms as to the future financial stablility of existing children, it cannot be used in terms of a future divorce. But, to protect children in the unforseen death of the parent, it is properly used.

 

[Phemie]

Not always. The Church allows pre-nups if one is free to marry but already has children that need to be protected in the event of death of the parent. If you use a pre-nup to draw up terms as to the future financial stablility of existing children, it cannot be used in terms of a future divorce. But, to protect children in the unforseen death of the parent, it is properly used.

Isn’t a Will the usual way to deal with the disposal of property upon the death of a spouse?

Of course in some places, Quebec being one, the spouse is automatically awarded 50% of the property regardless of what a pre-nup or will says. That’s why a lot of people opt to shack up rather than marry a second time if they are trying to protect their children’s property.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Don’t marry someone if you’re not sure.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The couple needs to be aware that the Church’s understanding of marriage is that it is a commitment in which the couple is expected to be faithful, lasting until death, and open to children. Usually the parish priest makes that known during the “premarital investigation.”

Agreed, and FWIW - it may be problematic to embed a process in pre-Cana that even suggests (as some critics of the Church might charge) that the possibility of a failed marriage is presupposed.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Wouldn’t good estate planning take care of this?

I get what you are saying here, but I find it hard to believe that a will is less binding than a pre-nup.

Its not necessarily about what is “more” binding but rather about protection of one’s intentions if the will is contested or if the executor’s actions are challenged. The more in writing the better. I’m neither a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, but this is what I’ve been told.

I would also question a couple that can’t trust each other enough to believe that the surviving spouse would make sure the children are taken care of. If someone doesn’t believe that stating something in their will is enough, they must also have a pre-nup, stating the same thing, wouldn’t that be cause to question their level of trust of their future spouse?

Yes and no. Some people are just airheads, lol. Or perhaps there’s a fear that they could be easily manipulated, etc. Secondly, that would be a different question than the one about pre-nupts and validity of sacramental consent.

In the old days before no fault divorce, there was a built in legal protection for spouses in bad situations. Today they have to build it in themselves…

 

[FAB]

This question builds off of another thread on Pre-nuptual agreements and Annulments…

What would you think of something equivalent to a “pre-nuptual agreement” being used by the Church in the Pre-Cana Programs as a “pro-active” step on the part of the Church to build stronger marriages, reduce the number of divorces and consequent annulments?

Consider the extensive questionnaire that is filled out by one applying for an annulment. In my case, If I remember correctly, it was something like 43 or 45 essay questions that took considerable time to thoughtfully and truthfully answer.

Why not use the same concept/principle in the pre-cana process?
Maybe not a questionnaire to be filled out, but rather something that contains teachings - expectations, as well as some questions where each page or “concept” must be initialed and then the entire booklet signed off on. The couple would receive a copy and the parish would retain a copy to be filed with the marriage record.

As a beginning thought - the process could look at the primary reasons for annulments being granted, and then begin building a pre-cana “agreement” on these.

Thoughts??

Peace
James

Actually we do. In my marriage prep with a couple in starts at lease 6 months before the date. It not just planning the wedding and getting the paper work it is requiring the couple to go on retreat, to natural family planning class and a 172 questionare which covers all ascpects of married and married Catholic life. All the paper work is filled and we have had the tribunal ask for our documentation on the preparation of a couple.

 

[Joe_5859]

I like calling it a “Pre-Cana agreement” rather than a “Pre-nuptial agreement”. But of course the real agreement comes with the vows taken on the wedding day.

I think that’s an interesting idea. My initial reaction, though, is that laziness will find a way.

If all you have to do is initial off on various things “for the records”, you could still end up with couples quickly flipping through page after page just to put their initials down and be done with it.

If you go with essay questions, then the priest is put in the position of “grading” the couple. What happens if they “fail”? Does the priest then refuse to celebrate their wedding?

This definitely is an area that needs more attention and discussion. There has to be some improvements that could be made to the preparation process.

 

[jilly4ski]

Isn’t a Will the usual way to deal with the disposal of property upon the death of a spouse?

Of course in some places, Quebec being one, the spouse is automatically awarded 50% of the property regardless of what a pre-nup or will says. That’s why a lot of people opt to shack up rather than marry a second time if they are trying to protect their children’s property.

Usually, but sometimes in a pre-nup a new spouse could give up or waive their rights to certain benefits. (Such as SSI).
Also pre-nups can separate property so they don’t become marital property and subject to “forced share.” In American law, there is a concept which doesn’t allow spouses to disinherit one another. The spouse can take a share of the property whether the other spouse left it to them or not. The spouse could also agree not to have inheritance or other gifts received after the marriage to become marital property, thus allowing the spouse to give or bequeath it to whom they wish (including children).

 

[Phemie]

Actually we do. In my marriage prep with a couple in starts at lease 6 months before the date. It not just planning the wedding and getting the paper work it is requiring the couple to go on retreat, to natural family planning class and a 172 questionare which covers all ascpects of married and married Catholic life. All the paper work is filled and we have had the tribunal ask for our documentation on the preparation of a couple.

But that’s not done everywhere.

I know many couples who leave the office, workbook in hand, after meeting the priest for the prenuptial investigation. They do the workbook on their own and they might meet again with the priest once or twice, sometimes the only meeting is a few days before the wedding. That’s the extent of the preparation in my parish. Regardless of what they may have discovered about themselves in the meantime, they are unlikely to call it off at that point, no matter how many red flags have gone up.

 

[JRKH]

**What you’re proposing sounds like a more thorough marriage preparation. ** I think that’s a great idea. I think it would be great if a marriage prep program required 45 essay questions, forcing the couple to truly think about why they are committing to one another and what that means. In today’s society where divorce is the norm, some extensive marriage prep is almost necessary to counteract the cultural understanding of marriage as a temporary institution. We need married couples to understand the eternal nature of marriage before getting involved in it.

Yes - this is exactly what I am proposing.
And the idea of making it a documented item with initials and signatures at appropriate points attesting that the items were read and understood, would be intended to assure that those so attesting can’t come back later and say “I didn’t realize” or, if they do, the bar for demonstrating that lack of realization is set higher…

But, that said, I think it’s wrong to call it a “prenuptial agreement.” The term “prenuptial agreement” implies an agreement between the couple for dealing with a divorce. Really the opposite of what we want to accomplish.

Well the term “pre-nuptual agreement” serves two purposes for this thread.
First, In the title it serves to “get your attention”.
Second, the concept built off of another thread that I started on pre-nups and annulments. So it’s sort of a “segway”.

Leegal already addressed the instances where pre-nups might be legitimate instruments.

I do agree that the “common” understanding of pre-nups are for dealing with divorce and that was my “thinking” when I started the other thread but the good folks here quickly addressed that issue and provided good information on pre-nups in general.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Actually we do. In my marriage prep with a couple in starts at lease 6 months before the date. It not just planning the wedding and getting the paper work it is requiring the couple to go on retreat, to natural family planning class and a 172 questionare which covers all ascpects of married and married Catholic life. All the paper work is filled and we have had the tribunal ask for our documentation on the preparation of a couple.

Where is it that you work? - What country?
This sounds wonderful.
I never went through anything like this.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Don’t marry someone if you’re not sure.

I was sure when I married my ex…turns out that I wasn’t mature enough - did not know enough etc…to truly understand what I was “Sure” about…
Plus I later found out that apparently she was withholding some things and manipulating things…

In any case…No amount of study and documentation of “Pre-cana” will eliminate ALL divorces and annulments. And honestly I don’t think it ever could or should. But it hopefully would cut back on the numbers.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I like calling it a “Pre-Cana agreement” rather than a “Pre-nuptial agreement”. But of course the real agreement comes with the vows taken on the wedding day.

I think that’s an interesting idea. My initial reaction, though, is that laziness will find a way.

Agreed

If all you have to do is initial off on various things “for the records”, you could still end up with couples quickly flipping through page after page just to put their initials down and be done with it.

Yes you could. It would be necessary for the Priest to impress upon the couple the importance of properly studying the material.

If you go with essay questions, then the priest is put in the position of “grading” the couple. What happens if they “fail”? Does the priest then refuse to celebrate their wedding?

If they fail then your darn tootin’ the priest should refuse to marry them.
If essay questions are used, what it would provide is an opportunity for the couple to provide thoughtful answers and “talking points” for the priest to review with the couple, ironing our any rough spots, misunderstandings etc.
This is more difficult in simply face to face encounters as you don’t have teh time to reflect on your answer so much. When I applied for may Annulment it took me more than a month to complete the questionnaire.

This definitely is an area that needs more attention and discussion. There has to be some improvements that could be made to the preparation process.

Agreed. And I think that part of that process needs to be Catechesis in general and a very real and comprehensive Pre-Cana Process of some sort…
Something that signed off on by both the couple and the pastor and illustrates what they declare that they know and understand.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

But that’s not done everywhere.

I know many couples who leave the office, workbook in hand, after meeting the priest for the prenuptial investigation. They do the workbook on their own and they might meet again with the priest once or twice, sometimes the only meeting is a few days before the wedding. That’s the extent of the preparation in my parish. Regardless of what they may have discovered about themselves in the meantime, they are unlikely to call it off at that point, no matter how many red flags have gone up.

This does seem to represent the opposite end of the spectrum. I especially dislike the idea that the meetings are brief and “just a few days before the wedding”…

It would be interesting if a study could be made of the level of pre-cana and the divorce/annulment rates…

At our parish the Bulletin states "Call the Parish office 6 months prior to the wedding date…Now this might sound like a lot of time and it might be assuming NO problems or surprises…But what if there are??
Considering how much is going on in the 6 months running up to a typical wedding, 6 months is next to nothing IMHO

Peace
James

 

[Leegal]

Isn’t a Will the usual way to deal with the disposal of property upon the death of a spouse?

Of course in some places, Quebec being one, the spouse is automatically awarded 50% of the property regardless of what a pre-nup or will says. That’s why a lot of people opt to shack up rather than marry a second time if they are trying to protect their children’s property.

Yes, but canon law also speaks of pre-nups when one spouse has children and can use the pre-nup to protect those assets in the event of death. They can be used to protect assets. Since wills are not written in stone, the pre-nup also provides a second legal document as to what happens to present money of a spouse who has children and wants that certain money to go to his/her children.

It’s the only allowed usage because the Church frowns on them because other conditions are taken to automatically assume the marriage does not work out. The pre-nup, for a Catholic, cannot impose any other circumstance based on the unforseen future, such as “in the event of divorce” or “in the event we don’t have a boy or some # of children.”

It was in another thread that I posted. There’s a citation to the canon law.