Pre-Nuptual agreements and Annulment process

[Rence]

And that is the reason that DH and I have his accounts, my accounts and our accounts. The major savings account is in my name so that way we have savings. As much as I love DH, he has no idea how to deal with money and if its in an accessible account we will be broke. I learned that the hard way around the time of our first wedding anniversary when creditors started calling the house. At that time I took over bill payments and it’s been that way for the last 35 years.

So what happens when you have a major stroke, become incapitated and on the very day of your release from the hospital to rehab, your husband cashes in a joint CD and puts it in an account with his son from a previous marriage? And what happens when your husband cleans out all the joint accounts and puts them in new accounts with a son from a previous marriage on your release from rehab to home, still unable to care for yourself? What happens when he gets a lawyer and tries to take your home (that you inherited from your parents) because he decides that even though it was his idea to do some renovations on such home, he now wants all the money back? What happens when you don’t have a separate account to tide you over until the legal authorities and sort it all out and settle it?

Over the top? I agree, but it happened to my mom. Does anyone on this forum think I am stupid enough to get married without protecting my home and assets after seeing that real-life case study up close and personal? The Church doesn’t have the power to protect people against the unthinkable and unexpected when their spouse decides they’re not going to follow Church rules. In the real world, Church rules apply only to those willing to be subjected to them. Therefore, IMOHO, it’s immoral to try and tell people they can’t take measures to protect themselves knowing people can be destroyed without such protections. Maybe that’s why the Church doesn’t do that?

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

If the Church can protect the individuals when the unthinkable happens, then I’m all for it. Prenups are designed to protect both parties and their children and other family (for example, making sure that a home that a brother has invested in does not end up marital property and divided with the brother losing all investment in the case of an ugly divorce). If the Church can protect them (which of course, they have no legal pull to do so) then I wouldn’t mind. But claiming that prenups invalidate a marriage just leaves parties out in the cold.

I think the directive should be that people educate themselves and make sure that their prenup is not based on any future outcome of the marriage, so that it won’t invalidate a marraige, and that it will be acceptable to the diocese, not trying to cirumvent civil law that is there to protect people.

A Catholic couple we know were married last summer in a Catholic church and the entered into their marriage with a prenup. The reason for their prenup is that the groom is a partner in a law firm and has couple of other side business partnerships (a vending machine company and a restaurant). I don’t know the legalese, but from what I understand in laymen’s terms the prenup keeps the capital and the physical assets of law firm and the side businesses from becoming community property in the marriage.

According to my conversation with the groom, it’s not uncommon for business partnerships to require that all partners get prenups so their businesses don’t become marriage property.

I don’t know the wording of the prenup. I don’t know if their parish or officiating priest knew of the prenup when they got married. I don’t know if their prenup in any way invalidates their marriage. What I do know is that at least one Catholic couple with a prenup has indeed received the Sacrament of Marriage.

Luna

 

[Rence]

You may be right. But I don’t think that the Church should concern itself with that so much as making sure that those wishing to be married “in the Church” ARE “married in the Church”. If that causes more people to choose another (sinful?) option…Not much we can do about their free will choice.

I agree with you on that. They definitely need to work on making sure people are actually Sacramentally married.

 

[Rence]

A Catholic couple we know were married last summer in a Catholic church and the entered into their marriage with a prenup. The reason for their prenup is that the groom is a partner in a law firm and has couple of other side business partnerships (a vending machine company and a restaurant). I don’t know the legalese, but from what I understand in laymen’s terms the prenup keeps the capital and the physical assets of law firm and the side businesses from becoming community property in the marriage.

According to my conversation with the groom, it’s not uncommon for business partnerships to require that all partners get prenups so their businesses don’t become marriage property.

I don’t know the wording of the prenup. I don’t know if their parish or officiating priest knew of the prenup when they got married. I don’t know if their prenup in any way invalidates their marriage. What I do know is that at least one Catholic couple with a prenup has indeed received the Sacrament of Marriage.

Luna

Yeah, mom had a prenup too and was married Sacramentally.

 

[Rascalking]

It’s a good think Rence and I signed a pre-nup, or she would have cleaned me out in our divorce!

 

[joanofarc2008]

Remember a pre-nup won’t necessarily stop one from getting married and it does not invalidate a marriage per se but validity is something that is presumed until challenged which is not done until such time as a marriage is irretrievably broken.

 

[joanofarc2008]

It’s a good think Rence and I signed a pre-nup, or she would have cleaned me out in our divorce!

It would have been tough for Rence to have taken the other half of your assets dear one… You would be living out of a cardboard box.

 

[TrueLight]

Yes - this is exactly what I am proposing.
And the idea of making it a documented item with initials and signatures at appropriate points attesting that the items were read and understood, would be intended to assure that those so attesting can’t come back later and say "I didn’t realize" or, if they do, the bar for demonstrating that lack of realization is set higher…

Yes! Splendid idea.

I believe this would decrease the number of annulments.

 

[Rascalking]

It would have been tough for Rence to have taken the other half of your assets dear one… You would be living out of a cardboard box.

LOL! Very true!

(she got the house in the Bahamas though!)

 

[joanofarc2008]

LOL! Very true!

(she got the house in the Bahamas though!)

Yes but sold it for that t-shirt.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Yeah, mom had a prenup too and was married Sacramentally.

I only brought it up because when my husband and I went through pre-cana, our facilitator told us vehemently that the Church doesn’t allow prenups. The message we got was, “Prenups are bad. They mean you’re already thinking about divorce and you’re not even married yet. The Church doesn’t do prenups.”

That information didn’t sit well with me because although I didn’t have a particular desire for a prenup I could see where there was a place for one in our situation. Among other things, when my husband and I got married I’d already paid down half the mortgage on my house and I’d built up a modestly comfortable supplementary retirement income nest egg. I was in my mid-40s when we married, I’m a school teacher so I don’t rake in the big money, and I sacrificed to to make those things happen. And it did cross my mind that if, for example, my husband lost his mind in 15 years and decided to “follow his bliss” with a 19-year-old co-ed, I could be going on 60 with nothing tangible to show for 40 years of hard work and no possibility of retirement. (I mean I love teaching, but the last thing I want to be doing when I’m 70 is working a room full of teenagers.)

I just seemed odd that the Church frowns on its members for wanting to protect themselves financially giving what I saw as the trite reason that “a prenup mean you’re planning for divorce.” No it doesn’t. At least it didn’t in my case.

OP, I’m sorry if I derailed this thread. That wasn’t my intention. Prenups affecting the validity of the Sacrament of Marriage is something that’s bugged me for a long time.

Luna

 

[FAB]

No a pre-nup can and does divide property so that the deceased can devise property as they see fit.
QUOTE]

A properly drawn will does this much better.

 

[FAB]

I only brought it up because when my husband and I went through pre-cana, our facilitator told us vehemently that the Church doesn’t allow prenups. The message we got was, “Prenups are bad. They mean you’re already thinking about divorce and you’re not even married yet. The Church doesn’t do prenups.”

That information didn’t sit well with me because although I didn’t have a particular desire for a prenup I could see where there was a place for one in our situation. Among other things, when my husband and I got married I’d already paid down half the mortgage on my house and I’d built up a modestly comfortable supplementary retirement income nest egg. I was in my mid-40s when we married, I’m a school teacher so I don’t rake in the big money, and I sacrificed to to make those things happen. And it did cross my mind that if, for example, my husband lost his mind in 15 years and decided to “follow his bliss” with a 19-year-old co-ed, I could be going on 60 with nothing tangible to show for 40 years of hard work and no possibility of retirement. (I mean I love teaching, but the last thing I want to be doing when I’m 70 is working a room full of teenagers.)

I just seemed odd that the Church frowns on its members for wanting to protect themselves financially giving what I saw as the trite reason that “a prenup mean you’re planning for divorce.” No it doesn’t. At least it didn’t in my case.

OP, I’m sorry if I derailed this thread. That wasn’t my intention. Prenups affecting the validity of the Sacrament of Marriage is something that’s bugged me for a long time.

Luna

“The two shall become one” when one or both couple are worried about property and who gets what even before vows are extanged, theirfocus is not on having a sacramental marriage. Even the idea that one partner things they have to “protect themselves” sends up red flags as far as the relation.
The Church takes an interest in such details because it does indicate that there could be future issue including divorce, or unhappines in the marriage.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

“The two shall become one” when one or both couple are worried about property and who gets what even before vows are extanged, theirfocus is not on having a sacramental marriage. Even the idea that one partner things they have to “protect themselves” sends up red flags as far as the relation.
The Church takes an interest in such details because it does indicate that there could be future issue including divorce, or unhappines in the marriage.

But then how do couples with prenups get married in the Church? Because they do. Are Catholics only allowed to protect their business interests (see previous posts)?

And no prenup is going to protect against unhappiness in marriage. That’s just silly.

Luna

 

[jilly4ski]

jilly4ski;8798709:

No a pre-nup can and does divide property so that the deceased can devise property as they see fit.
QUOTE]

A properly drawn will does this much better.

No, if you are married you cannot give all your money to your children if your spouse still lives. No matter what you say in your will, you must have either a pre-nup or an anti-nup drawn up where the spouse waives such rights.

A pre-nup does what a will cannot, it sets out in clear terms what is and is not martial property, If it is marital property in some states, the deceased cannot give any of that property away, thus potentially disinheriting children from a previous relationship. These laws were put in place to protect widows (and children) from unscrupulous husbands, but also make things more difficult in a world where divorce and remarriage or children from unmarried parents is common.

Lets say you have some property before you get married, just a little tract of land which you earn enough to pay taxes and make a little off. When you get married you make extra sure that it does not become marital property. Spouse never goes to, or helps you manage the property, never sees the proceeds, and it does not get transferred to her name, etc. You have will that stipulates that this is the property that you are giving to your child from a previous relationship when you die. The rest of your money and assets are marital property gained during the time of the marriage. The you die. Land is a probate asset and must go through the court. The court may decide that your little tract of land is marital property despite your best efforts to keep it out. Marital property passes to the spouse by law and not under the will. Lets say that the court determined the land was non-marital property and thus was given to your child. But in your will you also stipulated that the money you had earned from the property was also to go to the child. However, you kept this money in a joint account with your spouse. No matter what protestations your child put up, no matter your intentions to give this to your son, this would pass directly to your spouse. You wouldn’t even have to keep it in a shared account, the court could determine that it is marital property and thus goes to your wife simply on the grounds that you earned that money while in the marriage, (except for the stuff earned before the marriage). So you see, if you and your spouse signed a pre-nup, your spouse could agree to waive her rights to the property, and money earned from the property, thus making it a clean gift to your child. A will cannot do this, your spouse has to agree to give up their right which are given to them by law, and they can’t do that in a will.

 

[puzzleannie]

This
Consider the extensive questionnaire that is filled out by one applying for an annulment. In my case, If I remember correctly, it was something like 43 or 45 essay questions that took considerable time to thoughtfully and truthfully answer.

Why not use the same concept/principle in the pre-cana process?
Maybe not a questionnaire to be filled out, but rather something that contains teachings

many dioceses do this, it is called the FOCCUS instrument, and is part of marriage preparation.

 

[Rence]

FAB;8799617:

No, if you are married you cannot give all your money to your children if your spouse still lives. No matter what you say in your will, you must have either a pre-nup or an anti-nup drawn up where the spouse waives such rights.

A pre-nup does what a will cannot, it sets out in clear terms what is and is not martial property, If it is marital property in some states, the deceased cannot give any of that property away, thus potentially disinheriting children from a previous relationship. These laws were put in place to protect widows (and children) from unscrupulous husbands, but also make things more difficult in a world where divorce and remarriage or children from unmarried parents is common.

Lets say you have some property before you get married, just a little tract of land which you earn enough to pay taxes and make a little off. When you get married you make extra sure that it does not become marital property. Spouse never goes to, or helps you manage the property, never sees the proceeds, and it does not get transferred to her name, etc. You have will that stipulates that this is the property that you are giving to your child from a previous relationship when you die. The rest of your money and assets are marital property gained during the time of the marriage. The you die. Land is a probate asset and must go through the court. The court may decide that your little tract of land is marital property despite your best efforts to keep it out. Marital property passes to the spouse by law and not under the will. Lets say that the court determined the land was non-marital property and thus was given to your child. But in your will you also stipulated that the money you had earned from the property was also to go to the child. However, you kept this money in a joint account with your spouse. No matter what protestations your child put up, no matter your intentions to give this to your son, this would pass directly to your spouse. You wouldn’t even have to keep it in a shared account, the court could determine that it is marital property and thus goes to your wife simply on the grounds that you earned that money while in the marriage, (except for the stuff earned before the marriage). So you see, if you and your spouse signed a pre-nup, your spouse could agree to waive her rights to the property, and money earned from the property, thus making it a clean gift to your child. A will cannot do this, your spouse has to agree to give up their right which are given to them by law, and they can’t do that in a will.

Yup!

A good way is to have a prenup that stipulates that the tract of land is not shared marital assets and that after the parent’s death, the tract of land will go to the son of the deceased spouse. Notice that there is nothing in that prenup that has anything to do with divorce. It just sets aside that asset to not be marital assets with the sole ownership of that property being the original owner. You can also put that land in a trust in the son’s name.

 

[jilly4ski]

jilly4ski;8799821:

Yup!

A good way is to have a prenup that stipulates that the tract of land is not shared marital assets and that after the parent’s death, the tract of land will go to the son of the deceased spouse. Notice that there is nothing in that prenup that has anything to do with divorce. It just sets aside that asset to not be marital assets with the sole ownership of that property being the original owner. You can also put that land in a trust in the son’s name.

Yes, though a pre or anti-nup is generally the cheaper way to go, since there are no trust fees, but if you have enough money to put in your beneficiary will get better returns.

 

[Chatter163]

This is an interesting discussion. My opinion is that no amount of prenup paperwork will be enough to prevent many people from getting married and then later divorced. Our Western culture, particularly American culture, has become so individualistic, consumeristic and materialistic that most Catholics are not properly formed in their faith throughout their lives, making a true commitment a very difficult thing indeed. Most are not taught by their parents about the teachings of the Church, including about marriage. Fornication and contraception are the norm, and even “staying together for the sake of the (small) children” is thought of as a negative thing.

I have lived in three different archdioceses, and all of them are very vigorus in their pre-cana preparation. While the quality of the preparation may vary from parish to parish, all require a six-month period that includes a lengthy premarital inventory, meetings with the priest and others (deacon or lay), pre-cana encounter, etc. Some require an NFP class, but even there those taking the class frequently make it clear that they are there only because this is what is required to get married in St. X parish. Therefore, I believe that no signing of documents will raise the awareness to a level that would potentially head off divorces, because modern folks tend to be duplicitous and self-deceiving. People, especially the young, can convince themselves of almost anything, and when faced with a marriage tribunal who waves previously signed papers in their faces, they will simply respond with some variation of, “OK, but I did not realize that such a statement could ever include __________.” Our society promotes this sort of thinking.

Having said that, I would like to see more emphasis on the following:

—dealing with the spouse’s family (nuclear and extended), especially where values and methods differ greatly from one’s own
—the raising of children in the Catholic faith (non-negotiable, or else no marriage is possible)
—why mixed marriages are extremely difficult and not recommended by the Church
—role of work and finances in a marriage (since many marriages break up over it)
—married, monogamous sexuality in a society whose values are contrary
—stages of life and the changes that people tend to experience as they pass through those stages, How do one’s priorities and perceptions change?
—what will happen when the parents of either spouse require extra care
—how a couple would cope with infertility and decisions about adoption
—having a marriage-centered, rather than child-centered, home
—Mars-Venus gender differences in thought process, perceptions, approaches, etc.
—how a couple would cope with substance abuse, infidelity or wayward children
—how a couple would make decisions about relocating the family
—parenting philosphies, and the influence of each spouse’s own family history in terms of setting parenting values, priorities and practice
—what are examples of ways in which we at one time in our lives were SURE that we knew all about and could handle a certain challenge, only to have it turn that we were mistaken? What growth was still needed and how was it accomplished? (emphasis on young people assuming that they know all that they need to know)
—identification of biggest mistakes one has made in life, how one knows that these were mistakes and how he/she would handle differently now
—identifying and tuning out toxic distractions to a marriage and family life

 

[FAB]

But then how do couples with prenups get married in the Church? Because they do. Are Catholics only allowed to protect their business interests (see previous posts)?

And no prenup is going to protect against unhappiness in marriage. That’s just silly.

Luna

Proper mariage prepartions looks for issues that could cause concern and issues in a relationship.
A pre-nup that would project a buisness interest such as a law firm I could understandable. A pre-nup that would project a soul proprioship, not so much. When we marry we are saying all that I am, including wealth is also yours.
Even though a pre-nup will not prevent an unhappy marriage, A couple’s feeling that they need one could be a sign of trouble ahead.