Pre-Nuptual agreements and Annulment process

[FAB]

Having said that, I would like to see more emphasis on the following:

—dealing with the spouse’s family (nuclear and extended), especially where values and methods differ greatly from one’s own
—the raising of children in the Catholic faith (non-negotiable, or else no marriage is possible)
—why mixed marriages are extremely difficult and not recommended by the Church
—role of work and finances in a marriage (since many marriages break up over it)
—married, monogamous sexuality in a society whose values are contrary
—stages of life and the changes that people tend to experience as they pass through those stages, How do one’s priorities and perceptions change?
—what will happen when the parents of either spouse require extra care
—how a couple would cope with infertility and decisions about adoption
—having a marriage-centered, rather than child-centered, home
—Mars-Venus gender differences in thought process, perceptions, approaches, etc.
—how a couple would cope with substance abuse, infidelity or wayward children
—how a couple would make decisions about relocating the family
—parenting philosphies, and the influence of each spouse’s own family history in terms of setting parenting values, priorities and practice
—what are examples of ways in which we at one time in our lives were SURE that we knew all about and could handle a certain challenge, only to have it turn that we were mistaken? What growth was still needed and how was it accomplished? (emphasis on young people assuming that they know all that they need to know)
—identification of biggest mistakes one has made in life, how one knows that these were mistakes and how he/she would handle differently now
—identifying and tuning out toxic distractions to a marriage and family life

With the prepartion questionare I use as well as many parishes, these answers are asked and if there seems to be an issue, discused.
Part of the prenuptial the the couple is required to sing specifically indicates that their children are to be raised Catholic.
The Church though can onlydo so much. In the end it is up to the couple to have a faith filled and based marriage.

 

[JRKH]

many dioceses do this, it is called the FOCCUS instrument, and is part of marriage preparation.

 

[JRKH]

For those interested in discussing the particulars of what the Church allows or discourages regarding pre-nuptual agreements, HERE is a thread dealing with this more directly.

Peace
James

 

[Vico]

I think if someone had handed my xh the questions that are asked on the validity of marriage before we were married he still would have gone through with it as he still needed my money but I think I may have been able to see through the act a little bit better. I think each of those questions should be gone over. They are eye openers. I actually spoke to a Cradle Catholic yesterday that did not realize what the term “open to life” meant that one shouldn’t be introducing condoms into a marriage to prevent a “litter of kids.” Somehow I hope that would be covered on a pre-cana talk.

That is one of the worst things about matrimony, one can never be 100% certain that the betrothed is not lying.

 

[JRKH]

That is one of the worst things about matrimony, one can never be 100% certain that the betrothed is not lying.

Not always true. I was 100% certain that my Dear Lady was not lying when we got married.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

A lot of good (name removed by moderator)ut everybody - Thanks.
I agree that there is nothing anyone can do to prevent people from just “blowing through” the pre-cana course and not take it seriously and then sign off while not taking it seriously.
I also agree that what is truly needed is to foster, “life long” catechesis so that children see the Catholic marriage and Catholic life in their parents and family.

After thinking about this for a bit…I suppose that the sort of “Pre-Nup” I have in mind is a set of affirmative statements and promises covering all that the couples are expected to affirm as Catholics in Marriage…

To make it a serious document and to impress on the couple the spiritual importance of what they are about to sign, it should perhaps begin something like…
We the undersigned, having diligently, thoughtfully and prayerfully prepared ourselves for the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony in Christ’s Holy Church and being aware of the great responsibilities associated with that Sacrament do hereby attest and promise, Before God and on pain of Grave Sin that:

Then would follow a whole series of affirmative promises based on what is studied in the pre-cana sessions such as:

1. We are both free to marry.
2. We will Lovingly accept children into our lives in whatever number pleases God.
3. We will use ONLY those methods Approved by the Church to space births.
4. We will do all in our power to raise our children in the Catholic faith.

Etc…

Of course this STILL won’t prevent people from blindly signing off without exercising due diligence, but it could cause the couple to pause and reflect since they are signing “before God and on pain of grave sin”.

Of course everyone recognizes that I am just “spitballing” - that is tossing ideas around to see what others think…The idea might be useful…It might have no real merit at all…
But thanks everyone for entertaining it with me…

Peace
James

 

[Chatter163]

1. We will Lovingly accept children into our lives in whatever number pleases God.
2. We will use ONLY those methods Approved by the Church to space births.

I suspect that many pastors and others involved in marriage prep would bristle at the notion of asking couples to sign off on these two items.

 

[JRKH]

1. We will Lovingly accept children into our lives in whatever number pleases God.

Well we can assume that the bristling would occur during the planning process for the documents.
If priests and laity raised objections then the bishop would need to take action to get everyone back on board with Church teaching…

Peace
James

 

[Chatter163]

Well we can assume that the bristling would occur during the planning process for the documents.
If priests and laity raised objections then the bishop would need to take action to get everyone back on board with Church teaching…

But most of us know that a “don’t ask, don’t tell policy” is in effect in many places.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

1. We are both free to marry.

That’s essentially already established. The priest who does the paperwork will investigate this.

1. We will Lovingly accept children into our lives in whatever number pleases God.

That’s a little vague and on it’s face it would appear to rule out NFP.

1. We will use ONLY those methods Approved by the Church to space births.

While this is definitely a moral issue it is not a requirement for sacramental validity nor can it be used as the basis for an annulment. So I’m not sure what the basis for demanding this from a couple would be…

1. We will do all in our power to raise our children in the Catholic faith.

Not sure how other dioceses do it, but it my diocese that’s a question the priest asks during the premarital investigation.

 

[JRKH]

Well the points I posted were examples of what might be included…Change them around as need be…I trust the Church on this.

The point of my thought is that some certain list of items previously discussed between the couple and their pastor would be read over and signed stating that they have not only reviewed these certain items but agreed to them…

Ah- well - It would probably never work anyway…

Peace
James

 

[Vico]

Well the points I posted were examples of what might be included…Change them around as need be…I trust the Church on this.

The point of my thought is that some certain list of items previously discussed between the couple and their pastor would be read over and signed stating that they have not only reviewed these certain items but agreed to them…

Ah- well - It would probably never work anyway…

Peace
James

Some parishes do use such a form now. I searched and found one site with documents:

archatl.com/offices/tribunal/clergy/index.php

 

[dochawk]

This is a reason for a will, not a pre-nup.

No, it has to do with the children.

Marvin Mitchelson, notorious divorce attorney, called prenups the absolute worst thing to do for a marriage, and stated that he’d never seen one that hadn’t led to divorce . . .

However, those were ones that planned for divorce.

A prenuptial agreement can actually change what happens on death under state law. This could, for example, allow immediate passing of one party’s property to his children upon death, rather than leaving it bund for the support of the other spouse.

As an attorney, I strongly urge second marriages with adult children to have a simple agreement. It is quite common for the children of both spouses to be convinced that e other is after their parent’s money . . . I’ve seen the ugliness that this leads to, and the stress on the married couple.

This is from a incomplete knowledge of the law. (States are either communal property states like Texas or Marital property states, which are the majority).

I’ve only practiced in community property states, but the only place I’ve ever heard “marital property states” is from Wisconsin attorneys–that being the only state to use the term, which actually means “community property.”. Wisconsin switched from Common Law to CP a few decades ago, but slapped another name on it–but their attorneys never seem to get that there is no plural of that term . . .

hawk, esq.

 

[JRKH]

Some parishes do use such a form now. I searched and found one site with documents:

archatl.com/offices/tribunal/clergy/index.php

Interesting.

Peace
James

 

[Phemie]

Interesting.

Peace
James

These are the standard forms for the prenuptial investigation. I’ve seen those dating back to the 50s in my parish. Note that they serve only to determine that the basic things are there for validity: the intent for marriage to be for life, the intent to have children if possible, the intent to be faithful and the capacity for sex and the freedom to marry. I signed those when I met with my pastor before my marriage in 1975 and I’ve prepared dozens for couples’ initial meeting with the pastor, as well as made sure that they were filled out properly when forwarded to the diocese for dispensations or permission for marriages outside the parish/diocese.

As for the dispensation and permission form, the most often checked off reason is “Spiritual good of the parties”. I’m sure that’s what my own pastor probably checked off when seeking a dispensation for me to marry a non-Catholic. Note on the dispensation/permission form that only the Catholic signs the promise to do all in the his/her power to raise the children Catholic, the non-Catholic doesn’t but the priest affirms that he/she has been informed of the Catholic’s promise.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Some parishes do use such a form now. I searched and found one site with documents:

archatl.com/offices/tribunal/clergy/index.php

I’m unaware of any US diocese that doesn’t use some version of that kind of form.

 

[JRKH]

I’m unaware of any US diocese that doesn’t use some version of that kind of form.

I don’t remember ever signing any such form(s) for my first marriage…But that was nearly 40 years ago now…

Peace
James

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I don’t remember ever signing any such form(s) for my first marriage…But that was nearly 40 years ago now…

That’s why I was a little confused about this thread. My diocese uses a form similar to the linked one however its the priest who fills it out not the couple. We have the priest ask the couple to swear to tell the truth and then ask essentially the same questions that are on that form and then the couple signs it at the end. And when couples from out of state to get married at my parish the paperwork they bring with them is very similar. Although my diocese does not use the FOCCUS.

You had the right idea!

 

[FAB]

This is from a incomplete knowledge of the law. (States are either communal property states like Texas or Marital property states, which are the majority). In a marital property states all assets gained during the course of the marriage become part of the marital property and are thus cannot be bequeathed until the death of the second spouse or is subject to a forced share. A pre-nup says that the spouse waives their right to things like inheritance or gifts received after the date of the marriage. They can also waive rights to property or assets gained before the marriage which could become marital property or subject to the forced share. This stuff cannot be done in a will, and is often up to the whims of the court to decide if there is a question on marital or non marital, property. (And just because it is a non-marital assent it is still subject to the forced share).

I know state of Texas law which considers any property gained during a marriage community property. A properly drawn will could direct that certain property goes to children that was gained before the second marriage, the second spouse should be aware of this. The will can also leave property to the children that is gained during the marriage.
The probate courts with a proper executor can assure a persons wishes are followed.

Pre-nups are in most cases drawn up with the idea, “in case of divorce” this is not how to enter into a sacramental marriage.
The is a question on the prenuptial inventory that specifically ask if a pre-nup has been signed. If there is, the person preparing the couple is to contract the Diocese tribunal.
The final decision is in their hands.

 

[dochawk]

Well - in the case of my previous marriage (can I say this since it never really existed???) The pre-cana was perfunctory at best. Of course we already had a child on the way - but also I was not quite 18 at the time…It might have been to our advantage had the priest (a good man by the way) had forced us to take more time on the matter and really think things through…

In the local RC diocese, unmarried pregnancy is seen as an impediment to consent, and the marriage is not to occur. There is also a minimum age of 19.

jilly4ski;8798709:

No a pre-nup can and does divide property so that the deceased can devise property as they see fit.
QUOTE]

A properly drawn will does this much better.

I keep seeing people say this, and I will state, as an attorney, that this is categorically false. Depending upon state law there are a variety of things that can be done in a prenup that cannot be done by will. Some of these may be possible in an ante-nuptial agreement, but that tends to be less effective.

There are a lot of non-lawyers making statements about wills that our contrary to law. Also, note that a spouse generally has an option of taking against the will anyway; the prenup can address this.

That’s a little vague and on it’s face it would appear to rule out NFP.

While this is definitely a moral issue it is not a requirement for sacramental validity nor can it be used as the basis for an annulment. So I’m not sure what the basis for demanding this from a couple would be…

I would think that one spouse lying to the other about willingness to use NFP, while intending to use ABC, would go to the issue of consent and intent to contract marriage.

For that matter, it would be grounds for civil annulment in many (all?) states.

hawk, esq.