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puzzleannie
Guest
we have it
it is called the Rite of the Sacrament of Matrimony
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it is called the Rite of the Sacrament of Matrimony
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NewEnglandPriest
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Its possible but in that case lying and deception would be the grounds not ABC. Use of ABC, though sinful, is not in itself grounds for nullity of marital consent.
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puzzleannie
Guest
not if they want to marry validly in the Catholic Church. A pre-nup that assumes or pre-supposes the possibility of divorce will most likely be grounds for the priest to refuse to marry them if he finds out about it, or to invalidate if it ever comes to the tribunal.
No a pre-nup is not always or even usually the best way to protect persons such as business partners in the eventuality one partner divorces and the ex makes a claim on the business assets. The organization of the business and how it is set up in the partnership agreement or articles of incorporation are far more effective for such a goal, as is insurance to cover such eventualities.
Yes Texas is a community property state but there can be exceptions, for instance business assets can be protected if the business is set up properly, even though both spouses share the income from the business.
other posters have talked about pre-nups as vehicles to protect the children of someone who is now entering into a second marriage, and that also is much better served by proper estate planning, living trusts etc. Pre-nups are much harder to enforce and subject to so much legal rangling it is very chancy to rely on them to achieve these goals.
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jilly4ski
Guest
Thank you!
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dochawk
Guest
Perhaps in a very isolated set of circumstances, but as a generalization, this is not true. That agreement is just not binding upon the spouses.
Generally speaking, insurance is not available to cover “Moral Hazards” such as divorce.
The prenup could leave the partners certainty that they could continue in business, while the incredibly expensive insurance (again, assuming an underwriter could even be found) tells them that they’re going to get a check if George’s wife divorces him.
Generally speaking, an LLC can provide more protection to the existence of the business than a corporation or partnership. However, here in Nevada, for example, the ability to pay the divorced member (“partner”) could be seriously impared
hawk, esq.
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NewEnglandPriest
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Once again, it all depends. A pre-nup that addresses possible divorce scenarios does not in and of itself invalidate consent. It all depends on the specifics of it.
Unless you’re also a lawyer I’d go with what was stated in another thread:
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FAB
Guest
What you as a lawyer are looking for civil conditions to a marriage, as clergy I am looking to the spiritual and what is very mush often hardr to determine, a couple’s true intention. the existance of a pre-nup could point to the idea that at the very begining of a marriage, one or both are holding some kind of deep doubts as far as their long term commitment.
This is part of what a tribunial would look at as well and is the reason why the question is part of the standard questioning of a couple.
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chevalier
Guest
The Church already is looking into more detailed marriage preparation, which includes filtering out the same reasons for which later nullity decrees are granted. This is what Pope Benedict called for in his address to the Roman Rota last year and at least where I live, this is being done.
We can’t make people take polygraph but it would be great to make them go point by point through a list of problematic issues, some disqualifying and some “merely” troubling, and, let’s say, confirm with their signature that they’ve read it carefully.
At the same time, preparation procedures cannot violate the dignity of the human person and I have doubts about some of the proposed measures that I hear about (mandatory medical examinations etc.). Marriage prep shouldn’t be turned into a humiliating ordeal. Nupturients shouldn’t be humiliated on the onset of thair marital path.
Also, don’t really see room for a proper contract, except maybe where certain jurisdictions allow spouses to opt for indissoluble or more difficult to dissolve marriages at civil law. Or perhaps some kind of penalty against a non-fault divorce petitioner, although I suspect many courts would regard this as unconscionable.
As for people blindly signing off: well, this can actually be dealt with by a procedural rule: the person administering the document to sign is not to accept a signature placed without reading the document. The signatory would need to flip through the pages and wait out while pretending to be following the lines of text. Pretty hard to do convincingly and extremely boring compared to just reading it.
Another idea is that preparation could include a final exam, actually. Some sort of test that would use plain, normal language and avoid an academic bent.
We can’t make people take polygraph but it would be great to make them go point by point through a list of problematic issues, some disqualifying and some “merely” troubling, and, let’s say, confirm with their signature that they’ve read it carefully.
At the same time, preparation procedures cannot violate the dignity of the human person and I have doubts about some of the proposed measures that I hear about (mandatory medical examinations etc.). Marriage prep shouldn’t be turned into a humiliating ordeal. Nupturients shouldn’t be humiliated on the onset of thair marital path.
Also, don’t really see room for a proper contract, except maybe where certain jurisdictions allow spouses to opt for indissoluble or more difficult to dissolve marriages at civil law. Or perhaps some kind of penalty against a non-fault divorce petitioner, although I suspect many courts would regard this as unconscionable.
As for people blindly signing off: well, this can actually be dealt with by a procedural rule: the person administering the document to sign is not to accept a signature placed without reading the document. The signatory would need to flip through the pages and wait out while pretending to be following the lines of text. Pretty hard to do convincingly and extremely boring compared to just reading it.
Another idea is that preparation could include a final exam, actually. Some sort of test that would use plain, normal language and avoid an academic bent.
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FAB
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We can’t make people take polygraph QUOTE]
It would help though if we could
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FAB
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May be, but as clergy I am looking for the spiritual well being and commitment of a couple, pre-nups lead to to be questioning those issues.Yes, and they’re screwy in that
Texas is alone among community property states in classifying the income of separate property as community property.
hawk, esq.
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
As George Costanza once said: “it’s not a lie if you believe it.”
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joanofarc2008
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You know it’s funny because I had a half-joking coversation with one of my male friends (who I would be interested in if it weren’t for the obvious impediment and probably vice versa). I have kiddingly maintained that the difference between secular and Catholic dating is that on the third date Catholics should go for the background check, medical exam, psych check, and credit report in order to find those skeletons instead of worrying about that secular third date stuff. (Yes this is tongue in cheek and I obviously am a bit gun shy due to something very bad happening) So I kiddingly asked my friend what date it was appropriate to ask for a psych exam? Without missing a beat I was told whatever date I would be willing to take the same exam. Which does leave me to ponder isn’t there supposed to be SOME mystery left in marriage. Granted not the big stuff but there should still be some getting to know each other and some mystery after that day. But it seems like part of the problem in our society is young people today (yes I’m one of them) are looking for guarantees instead of growing in faith together and realizing that growing in faith together offers the closest thing to a guarantee that we will probably ever see.
Without missing a beat I was told whatever date I would be willing to take the same exam. Which does leave me to ponder isn’t there supposed to be SOME mystery left in marriage. Granted not the big stuff but there should still be some getting to know each other and some mystery after that day. But it seems like part of the problem in our society is young people today (yes I’m one of them) are looking for guarantees instead of growing in faith together and realizing that growing in faith together offers the closest thing to a guarantee that we will probably ever see.
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JRKH
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RE: The Bolded…You know it’s funny because I had a half-joking coversation with one of my male friends (who I would be interested in if it weren’t for the obvious impediment and probably vice versa). I have kiddingly maintained that the difference between secular and Catholic dating is that on the third date Catholics should go for the background check, medical exam, psych check, and credit report in order to find those skeletons instead of worrying about that secular third date stuff. (Yes this is tongue in cheek and I obviously am a bit gun shy due to something very bad happening) So I kiddingly asked my friend what date it was appropriate to ask for a psych exam?
I knew my dear wife for 20 years before we were married. Granted much of that was long distance and somewhat through other people etc. But still…We knew each other very well on our wedding day, yet she continued to surprise me even years we were married. Always in good ways though…
So - I think it really doesn’t matter how long or how well you think you know someone. Once you are married, there are going to be “surprises”.
That said, I think that there is some truth to your statement about growing in faith together, and just growing together in general…
Peace
James
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chevalier
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Well, for one, I’ll say that there’s plenty of psych stuff that doesn’t invalidate marriage. For example, kleptomania didn’t fly in the Roman Rota because it didn’t manage to connect to the (bare) essence of marriage on invalidate, but plenty of other things, with even a more convincing connection, would not fly either. It is also said outright in the jurisprudence that the Catholic notion of normalcy allows for moderate disorders.You know it’s funny because I had a half-joking coversation with one of my male friends (who I would be interested in if it weren’t for the obvious impediment and probably vice versa). I have kiddingly maintained that the difference between secular and Catholic dating is that on the third date Catholics should go for the background check, medical exam, psych check, and credit report in order to find those skeletons instead of worrying about that secular third date stuff. (Yes this is tongue in cheek and I obviously am a bit gun shy due to something very bad happening) So I kiddingly asked my friend what date it was appropriate to ask for a psych exam?
In fact, reading some of the dismissed cases is a good reality check.BTW, my own “background check” could scare people who scare me on the grounds of their own current habits. In fact, this has happened. Starts from, “how many siblings do you have?” (I was the only from the same two parents but both had children after me and one before me). It scared cold someone who scared me cold. And a panel of highest-tier appellate judges in a lost case does not scare me cold.
He looks like he know what he’s talking about.As George Costanza once said: “it’s not a lie if you believe it.”
Actually, that’s so true if we look at it from a different angle… How many people refuse to see very clear signs and convince themselves there’s nothing to be worried about? Tend Bundy was receiving 200 letters a day from enamoured women and another murderer and rapist married a fan prior to execution, said fan intending to commit suicide after the event.
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chevalier
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*Ted Bundy, sorry for the typo.
Heh, by the way, anybody noticed how being Catholic or at least serious about it is a red flag to some people? After all, we’re the forces of counterrevolution, kind of like the Russian White Army.
Heh, by the way, anybody noticed how being Catholic or at least serious about it is a red flag to some people? After all, we’re the forces of counterrevolution, kind of like the Russian White Army.
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rainbow1
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You know it’s funny because I had a half-joking coversation with one of my male friends (who I would be interested in if it weren’t for the obvious impediment and probably vice versa). I have kiddingly maintained that the difference between secular and Catholic dating is that on the third date Catholics should go for the background check, medical exam, psych check, and credit report in order to find those skeletons instead of worrying about that secular third date stuff. (Yes this is tongue in cheek and I obviously am a bit gun shy due to something very bad happening) So I kiddingly asked my friend what date it was appropriate to ask for a psych exam?
Love is an art, not a science…this is a great post!Also, I believe that the answer lies in teaching our children from an early age onward about what a healthy marriage looks like…I think when people are already engaged it is way to late…
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Phemie
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You’re right. Good marriage preparation should make at least a small percentage of couples reevaluate, postpone or even cancel the wedding outright and face the fact that they are with the wrong person. How many actually do that when by the time the preparation is over the money had already been spend on the dress, the venue, the reception, etc.?
Also, I believe that the answer lies in teaching our children from an early age onward about what a healthy marriage looks like…I think when people are already engaged it is way to late….
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rainbow1
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I think that it would be helpful to have the Church develope a new component for early religious education that focuses on teaching family life and marriage…let’s teach four and five year olds in Sunday school that marriage is a beautiful thing and why…how it can be, and what a healthy marriage is like. Let’s show them and teach them even about the lives of the married saints. Personally, I married young, had a very long term difficult marriage and dreadful divorce…I would hate for anyone to endure what I have endured…but even so, I think we as a Church have to be careful in setting extremely stong criteria that would prevent marriage or in considering “testing” couples who are preparing to get married. I fear it could become a “good enough to get married” or “not good enough to get married” classification system which quite honestly I think could be very harmful to people. I suspect the majority of current marriages in the US really would not “qualify” as true sacramental marriages…we are all humans with weaknesses…but we can’t stop living because we can’t quite do it well enough… or at least that is my theory. God loves us despite our weakness and through our weaknesses…
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