Pre-Vatican II Daily Mass

[tskrobacz]

Yes, they are current, but there’s so much more than is just defined in Vatican II. Yes, there’s a lot there, but it’s not everything.

Perhaps you did not follow my link. Here it is again: vatican.va/archive/index.htm

If this is not “everything” then where is the rest that encompasses “everything”?

 

[tskrobacz]

Ok, cool. Does it matter that the CCC quotes it? It didn’t define it. Neither did Vatican II. You linking to it doesn’t make your argument work. The CCC isn’t a document of Vatican II. **Somehow saying that Vatican II trumps everything the Church has ever said before is asinine. ** Vatican II contradicted nothing before it, and erased no teaching that came before it.

Your arguments are becoming futile. It is correct to acknowledge that Vatican II did proclaim some new Church teaching. How much, that is arguable. But to say that it swept everything else before it out the window has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I’ve heard on these forums.

Fist I did not say it “trumps everything” as the link I posted includes the Bible, CCC, etc which clearly are the historical wisdom of the church. Secondly, please keep your comments civil - you are jumping to conclusions and making accusations that are unwarranted and certainly not constructive to this discussion.

 

[YoungTradCath]

My question stands…If the resulting documents from Vatican II (inclusive of the Bible, CCC, Canon Law, etc) are not the current Ascent of truth promulgated by the Catholic Church then what is? Surely there is one place we, as Catholics, can look to understand the present teachings of the Church?

There are actually more documents and doctrines of the Catholic Church than those promulgated by the Second Vatican Council.

Perhaps you did not follow my link. Here it is again: vatican.va/archive/index.htm

If this is not “everything” then where is the rest that encompasses “everything”?

I don’t understand your question. Just because, say, the texts of the Council of Trent are not there, you are saying that they don’t matter anymore, or that they don’t exist anymore, or that they aren’t applicable anymore?

Fist I did not say it “trumps everything” as the link I posted includes the Bible, CCC, etc which clearly are the historical wisdom of the church. Secondly, please keep your comments civil - you are jumping to conclusions and making accusations that are unwarranted and certainly not constructive to this discussion.

I am being very civil. I said what you said is asinine. I’m sorry. It just means that what you said is extremely foolish. I drew conclusions based on the information presented.

 

[Marybeloved]

Fist I did not say it “trumps everything” as the link I posted includes the Bible, CCC, etc which clearly are the historical wisdom of the church. Secondly, please keep your comments civil - you are jumping to conclusions and making accusations that are unwarranted and certainly not constructive to this discussion.

Yes, but my friend, saying that ANY church council, ecumenical or not, or ANY papal definition ex-cathedra either:

-is merely of nothing more than historical significance and no longer binding; or
-replaces or cancels in any way whatsover, previously infallibly declared teachings by councils and/or popes

…is truly total contradiction. Something is either authoritative, binding and infallible or it is not. It cannot be completely binding and free of error today then repealed tomorrow- it just does not work that way.

Also note that the CCC is a teaching of the church that condenses the 2,000 years of teaching in one document for the benefit of the faithful who cannot be expected to have to go through 2,000 years of documents and teachings to understand their faith. It’s a beautiful work of charity by the church hierarchy done out of obedience to the Lord who said: teach, proclaim, feed my sheep etc. In it, the Church has done the work for you of going through all 2,000 years’ worth of council, magisterial and papal teaching to avail it to you in a simpler- though still comprehensive, unified and consistent form that we can all read and understand and refer to. The Councils are still available to the hierarchy and experts and even lay people involved with studying them- You can find them if you want to.

Vatican II was about teaching the same ages-old faith in a manner that could reach the modern man. It’s a presentation of the exact same faith in a way that the Church believed would be more effective in the modern era. That’s why it’s made so easily available- It’s a guide for presenting and living the faith in the modern age and the unique challenges it presents to Christianity. It cannot and does not replace any infallible council before it nor any papal teaching ex-cathedra.

I hope that helps.

 

[tskrobacz]

Yes, but my friend, saying that ANY church council, ecumenical or not, or ANY papal definition ex-cathedra either:

-is merely of nothing more than historical significance and no longer binding; or
-replaces or cancels in any way whatsover, previously infallibly declared teachings by councils and/or popes

…is truly total contradiction. Something is either authoritative, binding and infallible or it is not. It cannot be completely binding and free of error today then repealed tomorrow- it just does not work that way.

Also note that the CCC is a teaching of the church that condenses the 2,000 years of teaching in one document for the benefit of the faithful who cannot be expected to have to go through 2,000 years of documents and teachings to understand their faith. It’s a beautiful work of charity by the church hierarchy done out of obedience to the Lord who said: teach, proclaim, feed my sheep etc. In it, the Church has done the work for you of going through all 2,000 years’ worth of council, magisterial and papal teaching to avail it to you in a simpler- though still comprehensive, unified and consistent form that we can all read and understand and refer to. The Councils are still available to the hierarchy and experts and even lay people involved with studying them- You can find them if you want to.

Vatican II was about teaching the same ages-old faith in a manner that could reach the modern man. It’s a presentation of the exact same faith in a way that the Church believed would be more effective in the modern era. That’s why it’s made so easily available- It’s a guide for presenting and living the faith in the modern age and the unique challenges it presents to Christianity. It cannot and does not replace any infallible council before it nor any papal teaching ex-cathedra.

I hope that helps.

Thank you for your explanation. The core question I was trying to get answered is simply where can one go to find the totality of truth that is currently promulgated by the Catholic Church. I can accept that it does not exist in one place - if that is the case has any effort been made to provide an index or reference point where any lay person could search to determine the church’s position on a given/specific topic?

 

[zab]

…getting back to the topic of this thread, It would be a rare thing to to find a movie or video of how daily Mass was celebrated before Vatican II. For the most part we were not allowed to take pictures or movies during the Mass. It was an exception that the late Archbishop Sheen narrated a movie taken on Easter Sunday explaining what happens at Mass but I suppose this was to educate people on what was happening. My dad took photos of First Communions during the time that I was growing up. He was not allowed to take pictures during the Mass. All of the pictures were taken after the Mass.
I attended daily Mass every day when going to Catholic School, but that was a long time ago and my memory is not that good. Daily Mass did not take as long as Mass on Sundays and Holy Days. And I don’t remember there being a homily at daily Mass then.
Here is one of his practice photos

 

[YoungTradCath]

…getting back to the topic of this thread, It would be a rare thing to to find a movie or video of how daily Mass was celebrated before Vatican II. For the most part we were not allowed to take pictures or movies during the Mass. It was an exception that the late Archbishop Sheen narrated a movie taken on Easter Sunday explaining what happens at Mass but I suppose this was to educate people on what was happening. My dad took photos of First Communions during the time that I was growing up. He was not allowed to take pictures during the Mass. All of the pictures were taken after the Mass.

Abp. Sheen’s video is absolutely amazing. I love watching it. The priest’s voice, I think, is the best I have ever heard.

 

[Marybeloved]

Thank you for your explanation. The core question I was trying to get answered is simply where can one go to find the totality of truth that is currently promulgated by the Catholic Church. I can accept that it does not exist in one place - if that is the case has any effort been made to provide an index or reference point where any lay person could search to determine the church’s position on a given/specific topic?

I’m not aware of any such effort by the church hierarchy, unfortunately, but the documents themselves can be read here:
shc.edu/theolibrary/docs.htm
Newadvent.com (Catholic encyclopedia) offers summaries that link to more comprehensive discussions of each of the councils here:
newadvent.org/library/almanac_14388a.htm

I hope they can help with your research, but you should probably get a scholarly book on the councils to help you in your studies or research.

God Bless.

 

[Qwerty777]

Vatican II isn’t against the church. It’s just that people have hijacked the council to promote their own view. Vatican II even said this, which is very in line with tradition:

Second Vatican Council’s CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH: LUMEN GENTIUM which was SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

Say in number 25 in chapter 3:

"Among the principal duties of bishops the preaching of the Gospel occupies an eminent place.(39*) For bishops are preachers of the faith, who lead new disciples to Christ, and they are authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach to the people committed to them the faith they must believe and put into practice, and by the light of the Holy Spirit illustrate that faith. They bring forth from the treasury of Revelation new things and old,(164) making it bear fruit and vigilantly warding off any errors that threaten their flock.(165) Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.

Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.(40*)** This is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, whose definitions must be adhered to with the submission of faith.(41*)**

And this infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed His Church to be endowed in defining doctrine of faith and morals, extends as far as the deposit of Revelation extends, which must be religiously guarded and faithfully expounded. And this is the infallibility which the Roman Pontiff, the head of the college of bishops, enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith,(166) by a definitive act he proclaims a doctrine of faith or morals.(42) And therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly styled irreformable, since they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, promised to him in blessed Peter, and therefore they need no approval of others, nor do they allow an appeal to any other judgment.* For then the Roman Pontiff is not pronouncing judgment as a private person, but as the supreme teacher of the universal Church, in whom the charism of infallibility of the Church itself is individually present, he is expounding or defending a doctrine of Catholic faith.(43*) The infallibility promised to the Church resides also in the body of Bishops, when that body exercises the supreme magisterium with the successor of Peter.""

This was written by Vatican II.

Since Vatican 2 says ecumenical councils are infallible the council of trent is infallible which declared in detail traditional Catholic doctrines on the sacraments and justification infallible.

 

[JimG]

The altar boy had to find his way down and up those steps twice while carrying the book and stand. The book was big enough to obscure the view of the stairs; so you were flying blind, and you usually had a cassock that was a couple of inches too long and kept catching your heels. Strangely enough I never heard of anyone falling.

Carrying the big missal and stand could be a hazard for a 4th or 5th grade boy. At my old parish I only recall one instance in which an altar boy tripped and tumbled down the steps. He was a little shaken, but just picked himself up and continued.

The most difficult thing for an altar boy was learning the Latin responses, particularly the “Prayers at the foot of the altar,” at the start of the Mass. Strangely enough, I began to recall them verbatim later in life, remembering even the priest’s part, which we weren’t required to memorize. Sometimes when somewhat aggrieved, you might find me just mumbling to myself “Judica me Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta…”

 

[Lormar]

Sometimes when somewhat aggrieved, you might find me just mumbling to myself “Judica me Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta…”

JimG, that’s a good one. I’ll have to remember that!

 

[Aran_Houlihan]

I find this video really good to explain the The Tridentine Mass

In nomine Patris, + et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Introibo ad altare Dei. R: Ad deum qui laetificat juventutem meam.

 

[Phemie]

Daily Mass was sometimes sung. I recall that one of my school mates, maybe 14 years old, chanted the Kyrie, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei at daily Mass. She and her mom were in the choir and she knew all the Latin Ordinary. How I envied her.

 

[petronus]

Anybody have a link or can explain what daily mass looked like prior to Vatican II. .

I was an altar server and must have served at thousands of daily masses prior to the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council .

Sadly on the whole they were rushed and mumbled .