Pre-Vatican II ecclesiology

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I know that during Vatican II, the Church:
  • became known as the “pilgrim church” and seems to have stopped referring to itself as “the perfect society” (Lumen Gentium, chapter 7 at section 48)
  • brought back the permanent diaconate (Lumen Gentium chapter 3 at section 29).
  • emphasized a greater role for the laity (Lumen Gentium, chapter 4)
  • stated that the Church of Christ “subsists in” the Catholic Church, and noted that many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside its visible structure (Lumen Gentium, chapter 1 at section 8)
By taking the opposite, is it reasonable to conclude that before Vatican II, the church:
  • referred to itself as a perfect society
  • had no permanent diaconate (at least immediately pre-V2)
  • did not emphasize the role of the laity in the overall mission of the Church
  • assumed that all elements of sanctification and truth did subsist within the visible structure of the Catholic Church?
Are there good summaries of how the Church defined itself (its ecclesiology) in the period between Trent and the Second Vatican Council? What about in the scholastic period before Trent? The early Medieval period?

I’ve read a bit of the patristics and ante-Nicean fathers’ writings on the Church, but am wondering about how ecclesiology changed over time. Am I right in my guesses?
 
I know that during Vatican II, the Church:
  • became known as the “pilgrim church” and seems to have stopped referring to itself as “the perfect society” (Lumen Gentium, chapter 7 at section 48)
  • brought back the permanent diaconate (Lumen Gentium chapter 3 at section 29).
  • emphasized a greater role for the laity (Lumen Gentium, chapter 4)
  • stated that the Church of Christ “subsists in” the Catholic Church, and noted that many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside its visible structure (Lumen Gentium, chapter 1 at section 8)
By taking the opposite, is it reasonable to conclude that before Vatican II, the church:
  • referred to itself as a perfect society
  • had no permanent diaconate (at least immediately pre-V2)
  • did not emphasize the role of the laity in the overall mission of the Church
  • assumed that all elements of sanctification and truth did subsist within the visible structure of the Catholic Church?
Are there good summaries of how the Church defined itself (its ecclesiology) in the period between Trent and the Second Vatican Council? What about in the scholastic period before Trent? The early Medieval period?

I’ve read a bit of the patristics and ante-Nicean fathers’ writings on the Church, but am wondering about how ecclesiology changed over time. Am I right in my guesses?
I think that the underlying presupposition that ecclesiology before Vatican II must necessarily be the “opposite” of what was articulated at the Council is faulty. That takes for granted that there is some big break with tradition that occurred at Vatican II. That is simply untrue.

If you want to get an idea of where the Church was at prior to the Council, I would recommend Pius XII’s [Mystici Corporis (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p...enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html). That’s his encyclical on the Church and it came 20 years before the Council.
 
As one counterexample to the idea that the Church “did not emphasize the role of the laity in the overall mission of the Church,” I just want to point out something from Canon 1 of the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 A.D. - “Not only virgins and those practicing chastity, but also those united in marriage, through the right faith and through works pleasing to God, can merit eternal salvation.”

A lot of people have this idea that Vatican II came up with the idea of the “universal call to holiness”. But in fact the religious order of Opus Dei was founded on that principle decades before Vatican II, and even the Fourth Lateran Council calls everyone to committed faith and good works, whether you are in a religious order or not.
 
A lot of people have this idea that Vatican II came up with the idea of the “universal call to holiness”. But in fact the religious order of Opus Dei was founded on that principle decades before Vatican II, and even the Fourth Lateran Council calls everyone to committed faith and good works, whether you are in a religious order or not.
I’d like to add the Little Flower’s The Story of a Soul and St. Francis de Sales’ Introduction to the Devout Life are two great pre-VII works whose spirituality has the ordinary Layperson in mind.
 
As one counterexample to the idea that the Church “did not emphasize the role of the laity in the overall mission of the Church,” I just want to point out something from Canon 1 of the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 A.D. - “Not only virgins and those practicing chastity, but also those united in marriage, through the right faith and through works pleasing to God, can merit eternal salvation.”

A lot of people have this idea that Vatican II came up with the idea of the “universal call to holiness”. But in fact the religious order of Opus Dei was founded on that principle decades before Vatican II, and even the Fourth Lateran Council calls everyone to committed faith and good works, whether you are in a religious order or not.
I’d like to add that this was one of many reasons why Opus Dei was considered liberal before the Second Vatican Council.
 
I know that during Vatican II, the Church:
  • became known as the “pilgrim church” and seems to have stopped referring to itself as “the perfect society” (Lumen Gentium, chapter 7 at section 48)
  • brought back the permanent diaconate (Lumen Gentium chapter 3 at section 29).
  • emphasized a greater role for the laity (Lumen Gentium, chapter 4)
  • stated that the Church of Christ “subsists in” the Catholic Church, and noted that many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside its visible structure (Lumen Gentium, chapter 1 at section 8)
By taking the opposite, is it reasonable to conclude that before Vatican II, the church:
  • referred to itself as a perfect society
  • had no permanent diaconate (at least immediately pre-V2)
  • did not emphasize the role of the laity in the overall mission of the Church
  • assumed that all elements of sanctification and truth did subsist within the visible structure of the Catholic Church?
Are there good summaries of how the Church defined itself (its ecclesiology) in the period between Trent and the Second Vatican Council? What about in the scholastic period before Trent? The early Medieval period?

I’ve read a bit of the patristics and ante-Nicean fathers’ writings on the Church, but am wondering about how ecclesiology changed over time. Am I right in my guesses?
The biggest change is really one of perspective, from negative (Thou shalt not) to positive (We exhort). I would recommend reading Cardinal Avery Dulles’ Models of the Church if you haven’t already.
 
By taking the opposite, is it reasonable to conclude that before Vatican II, the church:
  • referred to itself as a perfect society
  • had no permanent diaconate (at least immediately pre-V2)
  • did not emphasize the role of the laity in the overall mission of the Church
  • assumed that all elements of sanctification and truth did subsist within the visible structure of the Catholic Church?
While these statements are a bit of an oversimplification, overall I think it could be said that these were general attitudes that the Church had been moving away in the decades before Vatican II.

make that “at least some respected leaders and theologians had moving away from” whichb probably influenced Pope John to call the council and which defintely influenced the vast majority of the Council Fathers
 
janeway529 #7
I would recommend reading Cardinal Avery Dulles’ Models of the Church if you haven’t already.
One has to be wary of *Models of the Church *as Fr Thomas Dubay, SM, in Authenticity, p 247, explains: “On the one hand, it plays down excessively the institutional model, and on the other, it exaggerates as a criterion of value what modern men find to their liking.”

Fr Avery Dulles claimed that “the ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff had fallen into error,” in addressing the Catholic Theological Society of America in 1976, also claiming this gem: “Indirectly…the Council worked powerfully to undermine the authoritarian theory and to legitimate dissent in the Church…Vatican II quietly reversed earlier positions…on a number of important issues.” (CTSA Proceedings, 1976, p240-241).

There was mass confusion by Avery Cardinal Dulles in his earlier years after Vatican II, such as The Survival of Dogma, 1971. Dulles writes, p 114: “The times call for an ‘epochal’ reinterpretation of the very notion of ‘magisterium’ ……Contemporary techniques of government, teaching and communications would seem to harmonise at least as well with the demands of the gospel as do the feudal and absolutist patterns of the past.” On pp 117-120, Dulles professes explicitly the doctrine of the historical and cultural relativism of the Dogmas of the Catholic Church – “Man’s religious knowledge is necessarily embedded in contingent notions that depend on particular cultural circumstances…(making) the dogmas of the faith subject to reconceptualization.” Totally false and in keeping with Karl Rahner. [Cf *The Teaching Church in Our Time, Daughters of St Paul, 1978, The Faith and the Theologies, Msgr Eugene Kevane, Notes p 54].

ON THE MYSTERY OF THE CHURCH (HPR, A-Sep, '99)
In reviewing Faces of the church: meditations on a mystery and its images. By Geoffrey Preston, O.P., edited by Aidan Nichols, O.P. (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 255 Jefferson Avenue, S.E., Grand Rapids, Mich. 49503, 1997), x + 310 pgs., Fr. John-Peter Pham Champaign, Illinois writes:
“In his much-heralded Models of the Church with which he intended to identify some of the main trends in twentieth-century ecclesiology, grouping the positions by type (or model) and considering the criticisms directed from each against the others, weighing the relative strengths and weaknesses of each.

“Regrettably, two unfortunate consequences arose from Dulles’s otherwise significant work. First, legions of lesser theological minds, rather than ponder the complementarity of his models, by and large took to them cafeteria-style: electing one over the others as the pre-eminent model. Thus, if one were to survey contemporary ecclesiology on the basis of the Dulles taxonomy, one would find an overwhelming option by fashion-conscious theological writers for the servant model — albeit with some lip-service to the herald model — to the wholesale neglect of the institutional, communion, or sacramental models. All, of course, to the impoverishment of ecclesiological science. Second, by the very fact that it attempts a taxonomy, Dulles’s approach, even in its best light, detracts from the mystery which is the Church at her essence.”

To his credit, Fr Dulles was able to renew himself and ceased to promote such error and dissent. He was made a Cardinal.

Fr Avery Dulles, SJ, later wrote: “The distinction between the Church as holy and its members as sinful has a long and venerable history. The Second Vatican Council, following Pius XII, carefully avoided speaking of the Church itself as sinful or as committing sins…The great ecclesiologist Charles Journet, in an article on the ecclesiology of Vatican II, pointed out that while from a purely empirical point of view the Church may appear to be sinful, the eye of faith is able to discern that the Church in its theological reality as Body of Christ is sinless, albeit not without sinners.” Should The Church Repent, First Things, Dec 1998].
 
While there have been many things done and said contrary to the intent or dictates of the Council, which was excused or given as “In the Spirit of the Council” there is no Pre and Post Vatican II Church. It was and remains the Catholic Church.

While the Council did comprise of both Eastern and Latin Rite Fathers, we sometimes forget that the Eastern and Oriental Catholics are fully Catholic. Among them are those who have always been what we now call Permanent (Fill in the blank) The emphasis was on a vocation and not just to the priesthood. There were and are, Readers and Acolytes who remained in those minor orders for their lifetime. Sub-Deacons in the East are permitted to marry after ordination to the Sub-Deaconate, as there it is a minor order, in the West when used it is a Major order. Sub-Deacons may remain so for a lifetime, and while less common, Deacons sometimes (most of all in Monastic Orders) never go on to be ordained to the Priesthood. The “Permanent” deacon (and other minor orders) was less common but existed in the West too. St. Francis is a prime example.
 
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