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Andrew_11
Guest
What did the Catholic Church teach about the salvation of protestants and non-christians prior to Vatican II?
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First_of_9
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Same thing as after.
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Jaypeeto4
Guest
The teaching officially remains the same.
Non-Catholic baptized Christians who are in invincible ignorance of the need to embrace the Catholic Faith, yet walking in the light of Divine Grace and in Charity, can be saved in spite of their membership in non-Catholic churches.
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
Non-Catholic baptized Christians who are in invincible ignorance of the need to embrace the Catholic Faith, yet walking in the light of Divine Grace and in Charity, can be saved in spite of their membership in non-Catholic churches.
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
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palmas85
Guest
The position was that there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. If someone had never heard of the Catholic faith, through no fault of his own, salvation was Possible, but not guaranteed. If someone expressly rejected the Catholic faith, knowing full well what they were doing, BYE BYE. That would have effectively done away with salvation for most Jews, Muslims, Hindus Buddhists, Orthodox etc, as well as most if not all Protestants.
The position now is rather nebulous. As near as I can figure the Church says that the Holy Spirit can subsist in other churches as well as the Catholic Church, and that they too can be saved. There is supposed to be some sort of relation to or connection with the Catholic Chuch in order for this to happen, but I have never understood exactly what that means… The whole thing is really kind of confusing these days…
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UKcatholicGuy
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Jaypeeto is correct.
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thistle
Guest
It doesn’t seem confusing:
CCC 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
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palmas85
Guest
Then lets say we have a Muslim, who rejects the divinity of Christ, which they do by the way, who lives a good life, but NEVER accepts Christ. What is his position in the scheme of things?
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Joe_Gloor
Guest
I believe that the idea is that since our protestant brothers recognize Jesus as their savior that they have part of the Truth of which the whole is the the Catholic Church.
2Peter2:20-21
If they have been raised all their lives to believe that the Catholic Church is in error they cannot be held responsible for rejecting it. It is far more common, in my experience, that protestants don’t think Catholics can be saved than the other way around.
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banjo
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From the CCC:
IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60
From Lumen gentium:
IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60
From Lumen gentium:
- Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.[18] There is, first, that people to which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was born according to the flesh (cf. Rom. 9:4-5): in view of the divine choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts of God are without repentance (cf. Rom. 11:29-29). But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day. Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:25-28), and since the Saviour wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4). Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–those too many achieve eternal salvation.[19] Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is considered by the Church to be a preparation for the Gospel[20] and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life. But very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, have exchanged the truth of God for a lie and served the world rather than the Creator (cf. Rom. 1:21 and 25). Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. Hence to procure the glory of God and the salvation of all these, the Church, mindful of the Lord’s command, “preach the Gospel to every creature” (Mk. 16:16) takes zealous care to foster the missions.
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palmas85
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Joe Gloor:
Maybe protestants have an out I don’t know. Paul warned about accepting erroneous teaching and the consequences thereof. People are still required to make a decision on their own. That is what they are judged on, their own decisions, not someone elses. But what about the others? Muslims, Jews etc. They both know about Christ and still reject Him. So where are they in the scheme of things?
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banjo
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mosher
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It is very simple as the teaching has not changed. While there is much speculation on the theology the definitive teaching of the Church is that “There is no salvation apart from the Church” and that the Church is the ordinary means of salvation. However, the Church has consistently taught that be way of God’s justice there are extraordinary means of salvation that are directly associated with levels of ignorance. So, in the world of the extraordinary one could say “There is no salvation apart from invincible ignorance.”
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banjo
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The Catholic Church holds to the claim to have been founded by Christ for the salvation of all. The early Fathers held that salvation cannot be achieved outside the Church. However, at about the same time, another tradition was developing through the recognition of the fact that there were God-fearing people outside the Church. An example of this is the account of Cornelius, “an upright and God-fearing man,” from the Acts of the Apostles. This tradition held that such people who, through no fault of their own, were deprived of the Church were open to salvation although they were not professed Catholics. By the twelfth century it was widely held that a person can be saved if, “some invincible obstacle stands in the way of his baptism and entrance into the Church.” This doctrine was later spoken of by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, by the Council of Florence in 1442, and by the Council of Trent 1537 which defined the dogma of Baptism of desire. (The Catholic Catechism, John A. Hardon, S.J.)
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warrior71
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I think palmas has a good point. What about those whose religion rejects Christ completely? What happens to them?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Even those religions which appear to reject Christ as a Savior (Muslims and Jews) do not reject God the Father. Since the Father, Son, and Spirit are one, perhaps that acceptance of the Father will be enough, with invincible ignorance, for salvation.
We DO know that every single individual (of ANY race, creed, color, sex, etc) is given sufficient grace for salvation from God. It is then up to the individual to utilize that grace (which will thus be through Christ, because it was due to His death and resurrection that we are saved) --or to reject it.
We DO know that every single individual (of ANY race, creed, color, sex, etc) is given sufficient grace for salvation from God. It is then up to the individual to utilize that grace (which will thus be through Christ, because it was due to His death and resurrection that we are saved) --or to reject it.
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palmas85
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Tantum ergo:
Yeah, but the point is those groups EXPRESSLY reject that concept and the divinity of Jesus. They don’t appear to reject Him, they knowingly reject Him totally and completely. Since they knowingly do that, as Christ is well known to both groups, it doesn’t appear that the salvation won by Christ would be available to them, unless they accepted Him.
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thistle
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I agree with you on this (assuming I’m reading you correctly). If anyone knows about Jesus and then rejects our Lord for who is then it would seem that they will not be saved. Muslims cannot argue they do not know about Jesus although there might be muslims who would like to know more but are denied the opportunity by family members. I know that in Malaysia, for example, muslims are told by their families that they will be disowned if they try to discover more about another religion with a view to converting and because of family bonds these muslims submit to the family.
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Joe_Gloor
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From what I’ve read regarding the Muslim faith, they do not knowingly reject Jesus totally and completely, but rather, they believe He was ‘just’ a prophet of God and only reject His divinity.
They are erroneously convinced of the correctness of their prophet Mohammed and that the Koran is the word of God.
This is very similar to the Church of the Latter Day Saints - the Mormons. While they profess a belief in the divinity of Jesus, they do not accept that He is the One God.
The unfortunate believers of these false doctrines need our prayers that the Lord will touch their hearts and bring them to salvation because He is their God - even when they deny Him.
I do pray that God will save them and trust in His judgement.
I also pray the God will save me, to whom the True Faith has been given from birth. I feel that I am much more culpable for my sin than any Moslem or Mormon who has not been given all the Graces that I have received through the sacraments of the Church.
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marysson
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mosher
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This is when we ask the question: why do they reject Christ? It is because they are truly rejecting him or is there a cultural or family bias or do they not really understand. Of course it is a true knowing and a true rejecting there is no hope of salvation but I think that in practical application it can be said that God will know the true nature of their intellect and will and he cannot be decieved. Thus, while we must say that objectively that we must take great care to help conversion because of love we can also say in the subjecive that God will act as He deems in accord with His plans of slavation, justice and mercy.
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