Pre-Vatican II vestments at an Ordinary Form Mass

[Lepanto]

This morning I attended an Extraordinary Form Mass. The vestments worn by the priest were beautiful and no doubt full of symbolism.

By contrast, the vestments, particularly the chasuble, worn at most Ordinary Form Masses look incredibly drab, and maybe a little like moo-moos.

Can a priest wear Extraordinary Form-style vestments (including biretta) at an Ordinary Form Mass?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Yes. There is nothing to prohibit wearing that style of vestment (minus the maniple) at any Mass (and, in fact, nothing to preclude wearing the current style of vestments (provided one added a maniple and amice) at the EF.

Deacon Ed

 

[Spiller]

Yes. There is nothing to prohibit wearing that style of vestment (minus the maniple) at any Mass (and, in fact, nothing to preclude wearing the current style of vestments (provided one added a maniple and amice) at the EF.

Deacon Ed

Many “traditionalists” (sic) would argue that even their beloved maniple may be licitly worn during the EF. I believe that “Fr. Z” individual said so as well.

Further I don’t think there would be any harm in not wearing an amice for the EF is one had an alb that did not require an amice…

 

[Lepanto]

Yes. There is nothing to prohibit wearing that style of vestment (minus the maniple) at any Mass (and, in fact, nothing to preclude wearing the current style of vestments (provided one added a maniple and amice) at the EF.

Deacon Ed

Why not the maniple?

I think that if anything would be a problem in the OF it would be the biretta, since there are proscribed places in the EF that the priest puts it on/takes it off.

 

[Brendan]

Here is a website that is dedicated to showing clergy wearing ‘fiddleback’ chasuables.

Including pictures of Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict ( as then Cardinal Ratzinger), Cardinal Arinze and Cardinal Mahony

dappledphotos.blogspot.com/2005/03/fiddleback-chasuble-sightings.html

 

[Brendan]

Why not the maniple?

It’s not listed in the GIRM as article of vestment.

Tres Abhinc Annos, the document on how to enact\emplement Vatican II’s Consitutution on the Liturgy, simply stated:

1. The maniple is no longer required.

So it doesn’t mean it was banned or abrogated.

 

[AJV]

It’s not listed in the GIRM as article of vestment.

Tres Abhinc Annos, the document on how to enact\emplement Vatican II’s Consitutution on the Liturgy, simply stated:

So it doesn’t mean it was banned or abrogated.

But can Tres Abhinc Annos be invoked here, since it applied to a different set of rubrics altogether?

I’ve read that a dubia was proposed to the CDW and they said “yes”, it is allowed. But I’ve never seen it myself so take it with a grain of salt (unless someone else on the forum can testify to having seen it)

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Why not the maniple?

I think that if anything would be a problem in the OF it would be the biretta, since there are proscribed places in the EF that the priest puts it on/takes it off.

not so. I have seen OF masses done where to priest wore the biretta.
It is taken off during parts of the Gloria.

 

[Brendan]

But can Tres Abhinc Annos be invoked here, since it applied to a different set of rubrics altogether?

Tres Abhinc Annos is a document on the implementation of Sacrosanctum Concillium, not any particular set of rubrics in particular, so I would say that it does apply.

 

[japhy]

Many “traditionalists” (sic) would argue that even their beloved maniple may be licitly worn during the EF. I believe that “Fr. Z” individual said so as well.

Could you lay it on any thicker? Fr. John Zuhlsdorf – “that ‘Fr. Z’ individual” – does indeed support the wearing of the “beloved” maniple. How would you like it if someone went around bemoaning your attachment to those beloved sanctus bells? Please exercise a little more charity.

Further I don’t think there would be any harm in not wearing an amice for the EF is one had an alb that did not require an amice…

I’m not sure the rubrics for the E.F. allow for the amice to be optional. It has a spiritual significance attached to it; it isn’t just a relic from a bygone era. I wouldn’t be surprised if a priest celebrating the E.F. wore an amice under a perfectly-fitted alb (i.e. one that was close around his neck).

 

[Spiller]

I gotta say, those fiddleback chasables and lacy lingerie albs look hideous. The are just plain ugly – they look like bulletproof vests. Sure, there are some very ornate fiddlebacks and lingerie albs that are impressive in their own way but the average fiddleback and linergie alb are typically hideous. I like them from they history they represent, but they are flat-out ugly.

IF the situation was reversed and the fiddlebacks and lingerie albs were were NEW and a product of the VC2 reforms I am absolutely certain that almost all “traditionalists” would be screaming bloody murder over the new designs and how ugly they are.

 

[benedictgal]

I gotta say, those fiddleback chasables and lacy lingerie albs look hideous. The are just plain ugly – they look like bulletproof vests. Sure, there are some very ornate fiddlebacks and lingerie albs that are impressive in their own way but the average fiddleback and linergie alb are typically hideous. I like them from they history they represent, but they are flat-out ugly.

IF the situation was reversed and the fiddlebacks and lingerie albs were were NEW and a product of the VC2 reforms I am absolutely certain that almost all “traditionalists” would be screaming bloody murder over the new designs and how ugly they are.

First of all, it would be most appreciative if you were to refrain from rude and flippant comments.

Pope Benedict has worn the “fiddleback” vestments while celebrating Mass at St. Peter’s. Furthermore, he has brought back many of the beautiful vestments that had not seen the light of day for many years.

One Easter Vigil, prior before our parish was elevated to Cathedral, the pastor found some beautiful, 100-year old gold brocade vestments. He wore the fiddleback, along with a very ornate alb at the bottom. He also wore the cope, as well. The artistry was magnificent, a precious art that is certainliy lost by many of today’s vestment makers who seem to produce “ready-to-wear” products with very little semblamce to the sacred.

 

[Spiller]

First of all, it would be most appreciative if you were to refrain from rude and flippant comments.

Pope Benedict has worn the “fiddleback” vestments while celebrating Mass at St. Peter’s. Furthermore, he has brought back many of the beautiful vestments that had not seen the light of day for many years.

One Easter Vigil, prior before our parish was elevated to Cathedral, the pastor found some beautiful, 100-year old gold brocade vestments. He wore the fiddleback, along with a very ornate alb at the bottom. He also wore the cope, as well. The artistry was magnificent, a precious art that is certainliy lost by many of today’s vestment makers who seem to produce “ready-to-wear” products with very little semblamce to the sacred.

Some of the fiddlebacks Pope Benedict has worn are indeed impressive – but it has nothing to do with their fiddleback cut, which only detracts from their appearance.

Those that try to defend the fiddlebacks always compare the most ornate and historic examples to either the cheapest examples of Greek/Gothic chasubles they can think of OR the horrid adobe-colored burlap versions of the 1970’s. That’s quite telling.

Simply put, the best examples of Greek/Gothic chasubles look FAR SUPERIOR than the best examples of fiddlebacks. The lingerie looks silly either way and thank goodness our Pope has the good taste to stay away from it for the most part.

I have no question that most self-described “traditonalists” would scream bloody murder if the Greek/Gothic chasubles had been in common use and the bullet-proof vests has been foisted upon us with the reforms of VC2.

 

[benedictgal]

Some of the fiddlebacks Pope Benedict has worn are indeed impressive – but it has nothing to do with their fiddleback cut, which only detracts from their appearance.

Those that try to defend the fiddlebacks always compare the most ornate and historic examples to either the cheapest examples of Greek/Gothic chasubles they can think of OR the horrid adobe-colored burlap versions of the 1970’s. That’s quite telling.

Simply put, the best examples of Greek/Gothic chasubles look FAR SUPERIOR than the best examples of fiddlebacks. The lingerie looks silly either way and thank goodness our Pope has the good taste to stay away from it for the most part.

I have no question that most self-described “traditonalists” would scream bloody murder if the Greek/Gothic chasubles had been in common use and the bullet-proof vests has been foisted upon us with the reforms of VC2.

Just how many of the antique fidelebacks have you seen, Spiller? I was priveleged enough to help uncover some priceless ones at our Cathedral, one of which, as I noted in my previous post, was worn and still looked resplendant after 100+ years.

Others, already in a delicate state, still have beautiful appliques bearing images of the Sacred Heart and the Agnus Dei. These were sent to be restored and will be housed in the diocesan museum (if that ever comes to fruition). A priest friend of mine found some stunning fiddelback vestments made of silk with gold brocade and beautiful images of Christ the King, the Holy Spirit and an intricate IHS. The copes were equally stunning. Because some of them were in a delicate condition, these were restored, sealed in a frame and are now on display in the parish hall (along with some historical information behind them).

I have seen the newer stuff in catalogues. Some of it looks like a tye-dyed mess and does not evoke the notion of the sacredness, solemnity and majesty of the liturgy. There are others that are more traditional and grand, but, none of these match the intricacy and the magnificent artistry of the fiddlebacks.

By the way, I got to see the precious liturgical treasures when the Vatican Museum exhibit made its way down to San Antonio. The fiddelbacks, albs and copes on display, some dating back several centuries, were stunning.

 

[jmdsc]

Just for clarification (and before gauntlets are thrown down)…Maybe someone could explain what the “fiddleback” chasuble history is, and why they are considered more traditional by some people. Please?

Perhaps this information would help us to understand each other?.. Just a thought!

 

[japhy]

I have no question that most self-described “traditonalists” would scream bloody murder if the Greek/Gothic chasubles had been in common use and the bullet-proof vests has been foisted upon us with the reforms of VC2.

Your hypothetical serves no purpose, really. You can’t prove it. And besides, the “lingerie” and “bulletproof vest” vestments (if you really must call them such) are part of a historical and cultural heritage which is linked with the liturgy itself, so my poor brain doesn’t know how to detach them from that context. That is, I don’t know how to separate the vestments from the period of liturgical history that produced them.

 

[redrosetea]

I think they are beautiful, and very stately looking …I wish they would make a comeback

I long for the beauty that we lost after vatican II

 

[Spiller]

Just how many of the antique fidelebacks have you seen, Spiller? I was priveleged enough to help uncover some priceless ones at our Cathedral, one of which, as I noted in my previous post, was worn and still looked resplendant after 100+ years.

Maybe a dozen dating from the later 1700’s? My parish museum has them on display.

Others, already in a delicate state, still have beautiful appliques bearing images of the Sacred Heart and the Agnus Dei. These were sent to be restored and will be housed in the diocesan museum (if that ever comes to fruition). A priest friend of mine found some stunning fiddelback vestments made of silk with gold brocade and beautiful images of Christ the King, the Holy Spirit and an intricate IHS. The copes were equally stunning. Because some of them were in a delicate condition, these were restored, sealed in a frame and are now on display in the parish hall (along with some historical information behind them).

We display ours pretty much the same way except in our museum.

I have seen the newer stuff in catalogues. Some of it looks like a tye-dyed mess and does not evoke the notion of the sacredness, solemnity and majesty of the liturgy. There are others that are more traditional and grand, but, none of these match the intricacy and the magnificent artistry of the fiddlebacks.

Um, OK.

By the way, I got to see the precious liturgical treasures when the Vatican Museum exhibit made its way down to San Antonio. The fiddelbacks, albs and copes on display, some dating back several centuries, were stunning.

OK.

 

[Spiller]

Your hypothetical serves no purpose, really. You can’t prove it. And besides, the “lingerie” and “bulletproof vest” vestments (if you really must call them such) are part of a historical and cultural heritage which is linked with the liturgy itself, so my poor brain doesn’t know how to detach them from that context. That is, I don’t know how to separate the vestments from the period of liturgical history that produced them.

It goes without saying. Everything else being equal, the cut of a fiddleback is ugly compared to a Greek/Gothic cut.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1106/1396611765_c746356013.jpg?v=0
Sure, you can find example of very fancy/ornate ones but they would still look better if cut in the Greek/Gothic tradition:
http://customsewingbypeggy.com/zoom_gothic_chasuble_white-gold_front.gif

 

[japhy]

It goes without saying. Everything else being equal, the cut of a fiddleback is ugly compared to a Greek/Gothic cut.

It does look odd when his arms aren’t raised from his side, which I would suspect is the functional purpose of the distinctive cut of the fiddleback (which should really be called a fiddlefront, no?).

But Spiller, you are again elevating your tastes to the level of universal knowledge. As if there is written on our hearts, along with the moral law, the law of chasubles and the law of the three-year Lectionary.