Pre-Vatican II vestments at an Ordinary Form Mass

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Just for clarification (and before gauntlets are thrown down)…Maybe someone could explain what the “fiddleback” chasuble history is, and why they are considered more traditional by some people. Please?

Perhaps this information would help us to understand each other?.. Just a thought!
Since no one took me up on my request…

Couldn’t this current “discussion” be solved by consulting the GIRM?:
344. It is fitting that the beauty and nobility of each vestment derive not from abundance of overly lavish ornamentation, but rather from the material that is used and from the design. Ornamentation on vestments should, moreover, consist of figures, that is, of images or symbols, that evoke sacred use, avoiding thereby anything unbecoming.
 
But Spiller, you are again elevating your tastes to the level of universal knowledge. As if there is written on our hearts, along with the moral law, the law of chasubles and the law of the three-year Lectionary.
snort You owe me a new keyboard! Thanks for the laugh. 👍
 
Since no one took me up on my request.
Sorry, we were busy quibbling. But I don’t know their history apart from what a Google search might tell me, honestly.
Couldn’t this current “discussion” be solved by consulting the GIRM?:
  1. It is fitting that the beauty and nobility of each vestment derive not from abundance of overly lavish ornamentation, but rather from the material that is used and from the design. Ornamentation on vestments should, moreover, consist of figures, that is, of images or symbols, that evoke sacred use, avoiding thereby anything unbecoming.
That is, in turn, based on Sacrosanctum Concilium, n. 124, which reads, in part, “Ordinaries, by the encouragement and favor they show to art which is truly sacred, should strive after noble beauty rather than mere sumptuous display. This principle is to apply also in the matter of sacred vestments and ornaments.”

I don’t see how these necessarily cast out elaborate vestments like the Holy Father has taken to wearing lately; I really don’t see how an overly-large polyester chasuble exhibits “beauty and nobility”. Compare these two chausbles, for instance:
  1. photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4502/1028/320/hideouschasuble.0.jpg
  2. photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4502/1028/1600/gothicchasuble.jpg
The first purports to have a Gothic cut, but it has far too much material on the arms (and yet the altar servers are no longer kneeling behind Father at the altar to lift the end of his chasuble for him during the elevations!). It’s also confusing as to what its dominant color is.

The second is a beautiful Gothic chasuble whose dominant color is clearly white, with light blue highlights (which is permitted in some countries by indult). The stole is shown here on top of the chasuble for display purposes only; it is worn under the chasuble.
 
Sorry, we were busy quibbling. But I don’t know their history apart from what a Google search might tell me, honestly.

That is, in turn, based on Sacrosanctum Concilium, n. 124, which reads, in part, “Ordinaries, by the encouragement and favor they show to art which is truly sacred, should strive after noble beauty rather than mere sumptuous display. This principle is to apply also in the matter of sacred vestments and ornaments.”

I don’t see how these necessarily cast out elaborate vestments like the Holy Father has taken to wearing lately; I really don’t see how an overly-large polyester chasuble exhibits “beauty and nobility”. Compare these two chausbles, for instance:
  1. photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4502/1028/320/hideouschasuble.0.jpg
  2. photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4502/1028/1600/gothicchasuble.jpg
The first purports to have a Gothic cut, but it has far too much material on the arms (and yet the altar servers are no longer kneeling behind Father at the altar to lift the end of his chasuble for him during the elevations!). It’s also confusing as to what its dominant color is.

The second is a beautiful Gothic chasuble whose dominant color is clearly white, with light blue highlights (which is permitted in some countries by indult). The stole is shown here on top of the chasuble for display purposes only; it is worn under the chasuble.
It truly is a matter of taste - what I think is distastful and obnoxious is someone elses “masterpiece/work of art”.

I agree with you on the first picture. I have no idea what season it is meant to be used for. Since there are no actual guidelines or “rules” the common thought is that the vestment must be at least 51% the correct color. I actually feel that teaching is what leads to these kinds of vestments and confusion.

Blue is only allowed in Latin America (no matter how hard some areas/people have tried to make us believe differently) …however, if you go with the 51% rule - it could be assumed that any other color could be used for the other 49%. Again, guidelines and rules would be helpful here.

Just for a basis, the common measurements for a gothic chasuble is 60" wide and 54" long. Of course these are adjusted for individual height, weight and shape.

By the way - the reason (originally) that servers assisted in the lifting of the chasuble was because the originals were conical in shape (a cone), making it physically dificult to actually lift the hands gracefully without assistance.
 
By the way - the reason (originally) that servers assisted in the lifting of the chasuble was because the originals were conical in shape (a cone), making it physically dificult to actually lift the hands gracefully without assistance.
Right. And it is retained (in the Gregorian Rite) even if a chasuble that is not so unwieldy is worn, because there has come to be a spiritual meaning attached to the gesture as well. I have heard it is an allusion to the woman who grasped the garment of Jesus and was thus healed of her bleeding; in the context of the elevation of the just-consecrated Host and Chalice, then, it is a symbol of our desire to be in contact with even the hem of his garment and so receive graces.
 
I have heard it is an allusion to the woman who grasped the garment of Jesus and was thus healed of her bleeding; in the context of the elevation of the just-consecrated Host and Chalice, then, it is a symbol of our desire to be in contact with even the hem of his garment and so receive graces.
I have never heard that symbolic reasoning before (and I’ve heard a lot of them!) I think it is a lovely thought! I’m going to add that one to my portfolio!
 
It does look odd when his arms aren’t raised from his side, which I would suspect is the functional purpose of the distinctive cut of the fiddleback (which should really be called a fiddlefront, no?).

But Spiller, you are again elevating your tastes to the level of universal knowledge. As if there is written on our hearts, along with the moral law, the law of chasubles and the law of the three-year Lectionary.
Don’t be silly. Fiddlebacks are simply ugly when compared to their more ancient Greek/Gothic brethren. Same with the greatly improved Sacred Scripture readings. Some things ARE intrinsically better than others…

These are two fairly good examples of why I would question the veracity of some “traditionalists.” They try to defend things that are clearly inferior by attempting to denigrate that which is superior
 
Right. And it is retained (in the Gregorian Rite) even if a chasuble that is not so unwieldy is worn, because there has come to be a spiritual meaning attached to the gesture as well. I have heard it is an allusion to the woman who grasped the garment of Jesus and was thus healed of her bleeding; in the context of the elevation of the just-consecrated Host and Chalice, then, it is a symbol of our desire to be in contact with even the hem of his garment and so receive graces.
It’s a shame that the maniple cannot be part of that illusion within the OF. Oh wait, Fr. Z says it can! Hallelujah! It’s “more better” now!
 
Don’t be silly. Fiddlebacks are simply ugly when compared to their more ancient Greek/Gothic brethren. … Some things ARE intrinsically better than others…
I can’t respond to that, honestly. My opinion is clearly deficient because your opinion is the truth. I will not mention fiddlebacks or one-year lectionaries in your presence again.
 
It’s a shame that the maniple cannot be part of that illusion within the OF. Oh wait, Fr. Z says it can! Hallelujah! It’s “more better” now!
Please, stop writing things like this, and with that tone of voice. I’d rather not put you on ignore, because a lot of what you say I take pleasure in reading. It’s far more pleasant when it’s written without condescension and superiority.
 
I can’t respond to that, honestly. My opinion is clearly deficient because your opinion is the truth. I will not mention fiddlebacks or one-year lectionaries in your presence again.
Thanks in advance.
 
Just for clarification (and before gauntlets are thrown down)…Maybe someone could explain what the “fiddleback” chasuble history is, and why they are considered more traditional by some people. Please?

Perhaps this information would help us to understand each other?.. Just a thought!
I don’t know about the history of the fiddleback chasuble, except that the “Gothic” (full) style has been in use for centuries, and many priests in warm climates appreciate the fiddleback for its relative coolness. I believe that this might be a reason for its invention.

Vatican II did not abolish any particular style of vestment, except for no longer requiring the maniple. Likewise, they did not abolish a particular style of music, so those old St. Gregory Hymnals can, and probably should, be resurrected along with the fiddlebacks and brocaded chalice veils. Just as modern styles were forced through by the liturgical music industry, those who create and sell vestments took advantage of the secular styles of the time to offer “modernized” vestments. Look in any liturgical catalogue and you’ll find gorgeous, traditional chasubles, made quite recently to meet demands by new priests and seminarians. On the next page can be found chasubles that resemble green drapes with cartoonish stalks of wheat, which, like the chunky, enameled brassware sold a few pages ahead, are often old stock unsold since the seventies. There is a difference between Vatican II and “the spirit of Vatican II.”
 
Actually, the amice is required by the current GIRM if the alb does not cover all of the underlying clothing. But, this requirement is usually ignored by most priests I have seen in recent years. The new albs usually allow the Roman collar to be visible, and they should be covered with an amice in this case.

The chalice veil is also almost never used, even though the GIRM says its use is “commendable.”
 
Actually, the amice is required by the current GIRM if the alb does not cover all of the underlying clothing. But, this requirement is usually ignored by most priests I have seen in recent years. The new albs usually allow the Roman collar to be visible, and they should be covered with an amice in this case.

The chalice veil is also almost never used, even though the GIRM says its use is "commendable."
The chalice veil is always used in our parish. I’ve never seen it not used. However, we did have a visiting priest recently who seemed not to know how to put the chalice veil on and was acting a little silly, and he also made a comment supporting your statement, that chalice veils are almost never used anymore.
 
I don’t know about the history of the fiddleback chasuble, except that the “Gothic” (full) style has been in use for centuries, and many priests in warm climates appreciate the fiddleback for its relative coolness. I believe that this might be a reason for its invention.

Vatican II did not abolish any particular style of vestment, except for no longer requiring the maniple. Likewise, they did not abolish a particular style of music, so those old St. Gregory Hymnals can, and probably should, be resurrected along with the fiddlebacks and brocaded chalice veils. Just as modern styles were forced through by the liturgical music industry, those who create and sell vestments took advantage of the secular styles of the time to offer “modernized” vestments. Look in any liturgical catalogue and you’ll find gorgeous, traditional chasubles, made quite recently to meet demands by new priests and seminarians. On the next page can be found chasubles that resemble green drapes with cartoonish stalks of wheat, which, like the chunky, enameled brassware sold a few pages ahead, are often old stock unsold since the seventies. There is a difference between Vatican II and “the spirit of Vatican II.”
Chasubles were originally nicer versions of men’s outerwear, reserved for the liturgy: i.e., coats, covering enough of the body to reflect their history as offering protection from the elements, but not everyday coats. For the first several centuries, at least, they would not have had a fiddleback cut.

I think the stiffness and distinctive cut of the pre-Vatican II vestments have to do with practical aspects of elaborate embroidery and goldwork. Goldwork breaks if it is on a backing that is too flexible, and heavier stuff like gemstones would tear away from a light fabric. A heavier backing requires a smaller chasuble, both for freedom of movement in the arms and because the heavy backing doesn’t have such an attractive drape as a lighter fabric.

I think the flare-out down lower is just because the vestment makers didn’t want to lose any more of their canvas than they had to. In other words, that cut is basically as much stiff fabric as a man can practically wear while offering Mass. If you look at the blogs, you could not add a half-an-inch in any direction without having a garment that decided on its own whether to stand, sit or salute. Some may actually be over the limit of the one wearing them, actually; they were undoubtedly made for a larger man.

Likewise, some Gothic chasubles go the other way in order to highlight the attactive drape that a lighter fabric makes possible…sometimes a bit too far for my taste. My meaning: the garment should make us think “coat” or “cape”, sure, but not “tent”. There shouldn’t be room to hide more people under there.

In other words, I think the artists making chasubles have a tendency to push their medium to the limit, and sometimes over it, in an effort to show all the beauty that medium has to offer. They sometimes forget that the focus is on guy underneath or, forced by limited resources, make a Large and decide that it will just have to fit all sizes.

When the elaborate embroidery is taken off of a fiddleback chasuble, the need for such stiff fabric is entirely lost on me, save the desire to have a “traditional” look: parishes less affluent than the cathedral would go for a less elaborate version than the bishop’s vestments, but with a similar cut. Nevertheless, I’m thinking that a more-or-less fiddleback cut (that is, barely beyond the shoulder in the sleeve, but flaring out from the shoulder somewhat, for additional drape) in a beautiful silk might make a really nice vestment for hot situations.

Even if you don’t care for the fiddleback cut, the older vestments with all the handwork are priceless heirlooms of the Church. The artistry and skill are nearly unbelievable…it is hard to imagine human hands could accomplish it. No wonder they wanted every inch their bishops would give them.

If you think them ugly, consider that they were originally custom-made, even if they were made to outlast the original target. The original wearer may have had a much different shape. IMHO, if a one-size-fits-all sentiment that Gothic vestment makers were a little more able to get away with were abandoned by makers of fiddleback chasubles, some of the worst examples would be avoided.

So yes, IMHO: a bad Gothic fit is very bad, but a bad fiddleback fit is truly hideous, just because the stiffness of the fabric gives the garment more of a mind of its own. For that reason, altar societies are probably going to supply a selection of Gothic chasubles first, then add fiddlebacks as their resources allow. Very practical, altar societies. If you want your parish to have some fiddlebacks, you’d better consider raising the funds yourself.
 
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