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Catholicforlife
Guest
I am in my early 30’s. I know very little about Catholicism before Vat II. Does this make me less Catholic? I sure hope not, been Catholic since before I was born!
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deogratias
Guest
No, does not make you less Catholic but Church history is very interesting, and there is over 2000 years of history in it.
Reading the writings of the Church Fathers really does help us understand how solid the rock is and how some things have been taught since the beginning though.
Reading the writings of the Church Fathers really does help us understand how solid the rock is and how some things have been taught since the beginning though.
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cassman
Guest
What document is this in? Can I get more info on this?
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system
Guest
Perhaps. But there seem to be many younger people on the anti-VII bandwagon too. People who have bought the anti-VII “party line”, but have never read the documents. (Which is just as bad as the other extreme - the “spirit of VII” folks, who’ve never read the documents either.) Who are uncomfortable with various modern abuses and problems, but rather than work from within, they jump to an extreme position for argument’s sake.
Unfortunately this is the culture (political, etc.) that we live in today - poorly informed extremists arguing at the top of their lungs. The more civil, friendly debate of the past is simply drowned out by all the shouting.
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deogratias
Guest
“The more civil, friendly debate of the past is simply drowned out by all the shouting”
And how unfortunate this is - our common goal should be for unity and not division and unity will never occur when one is shouting “my way or the highway”.
Probably there has always been some degree of “disunion” (is that a word?) of opinion but today with the luxury of being able to access forums we have more opportunity to express opinions but we also have more opportunity to read all the Church documents and writings of the Church Fathers which are on the internet.
OTOH there is as much misinformation as valid information on the net and so it is better to rely on the Vatican sites or sites that reference valid Vatican documents and those approved by them for the truth.
All in all, I would say today’s Catholic has the opportunity to be far better informed than the pre-Vatican II Catholics. The only books I owned then were The Baltimore Catechism and the Douay Rheams Bible and My Father Lasance Missal and prayer book. That seemed enough to me then come to think of it.
And how unfortunate this is - our common goal should be for unity and not division and unity will never occur when one is shouting “my way or the highway”.
Probably there has always been some degree of “disunion” (is that a word?) of opinion but today with the luxury of being able to access forums we have more opportunity to express opinions but we also have more opportunity to read all the Church documents and writings of the Church Fathers which are on the internet.
OTOH there is as much misinformation as valid information on the net and so it is better to rely on the Vatican sites or sites that reference valid Vatican documents and those approved by them for the truth.
All in all, I would say today’s Catholic has the opportunity to be far better informed than the pre-Vatican II Catholics. The only books I owned then were The Baltimore Catechism and the Douay Rheams Bible and My Father Lasance Missal and prayer book. That seemed enough to me then come to think of it.
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Arrowood
Guest
Trad_Catholic said:
I will admit that Church history is not my strong point, and I have no specific evidence to verify that number (can anyone offer specific examples to help me out or to clarify my misunderstanding?). However, it is true that questions in theology and practice always surround ecumenical councils before and after.
Can you tell us more about Bugnini? The fact that he was discovered a freemason certainly would be a strike against him, but what else can you tell us about his theological character? Why would the Novus Ordo receive papal authority if it was not acceptable?
I know that Vatican II is called VII because it was supposed to finish the work of the interrupted First Ecumenical Vatican Council. But wasn’t it a surprise when Pope John XXIII (is that the right pope) called it? Didn’t he call it because he saw a need to define the roles of the bishop and of the Church in defense of modernism? When I read the documents, I definitely see this trend. I will admit that certain vague statements have been exploited by liberals to advance their agendas. However, I do not see liberalism imbedded in the documents themselves.
The Second Vatican Council was validly called, and validly approved by the pope. While it was not a dogmatic council, except for the two dogmatic constitutions, it is guided by the Holy Spirit, who can work out His agenda no matter what human agendas try to get in the way. We are **finally **seeing the fruits of the Holy Spirit working through the Council in a lot of theologically orthodox movements that are engaging the culture of the secular world in ways that attract people to the faith. The damage done by modernists **will **be reversed!
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deogratias
Guest
The way I see it, Vatican II was a truckload of good intentions and purpose but it was hijacked and unloaded as damaged goods.
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oldschoolcath23
Guest
Many posters have claimed that today’s problems with the church/liturgy aren’t to be blamed on VII but on the crumble of our society, then argue that VII was a good thing!
But think about it, how can VII be a good thing if those who were behind the reforms in the church were simply products of their own environment (our crumbling society)?
Could it be that the current condition of the Church was inevitable?
But think about it, how can VII be a good thing if those who were behind the reforms in the church were simply products of their own environment (our crumbling society)?
Could it be that the current condition of the Church was inevitable?
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debi
Guest
Glad I saw this poll, I was beginning to think this forum was not the “best” place for an inquiring Catholic but more a place to voice the litany of “sins” of the modern Church.
Yes, I acknowledge problems - some major - but geez, not everything since Vat II is problematic.
Change is never easy, but division in the extremes I see here is devastating.
Pray, forgive, and work towards Godliness
blessings
Yes, I acknowledge problems - some major - but geez, not everything since Vat II is problematic.
Change is never easy, but division in the extremes I see here is devastating.
Pray, forgive, and work towards Godliness
blessings
T
Tradcat89
Guest
Tradcat…may I ask an opinion of your and those who have cited similiar posts?
In the grand scheme of God’s Plan (instead of man’s), is it possible that there were so many abuses in the Latin mass, that the Vatican II direction was taken by the Holy Spirit, not because a new mass was needed, but so that the Latin mass would be taken ‘to the mat’ as it were, so that the Latin Mass would gain it’s austere and preeminent position once again in the future?
It has been brought up in other message boards, for instance, that the liberal bishops and priests are slowly dying off or retiring, and in their place are more conservative ones who are bringing much of our tradition back, and tightening up the catechetical teaching of our young ones.
So is it possible that Vatican II isn’t necessarily as switching of tracks as much as it is a wake up call to see and value what we have almost lost?
I consider it a miracle that the Latin Mass is still around, what with all the agressiveness of trying to get rid of it by the liberals.
Story
Point taken! I see what you are saying. I think that it is a possibility, though I am not convinced that all the bishops were thinking that. I truly believe that some of the Council Bishops wanted something more liberal that they could use later on. I also agree with you that maybe God allowed it to go this far so that we could return back again to tradition. Thanks for bringing up that point.
In the grand scheme of God’s Plan (instead of man’s), is it possible that there were so many abuses in the Latin mass, that the Vatican II direction was taken by the Holy Spirit, not because a new mass was needed, but so that the Latin mass would be taken ‘to the mat’ as it were, so that the Latin Mass would gain it’s austere and preeminent position once again in the future?
It has been brought up in other message boards, for instance, that the liberal bishops and priests are slowly dying off or retiring, and in their place are more conservative ones who are bringing much of our tradition back, and tightening up the catechetical teaching of our young ones.
So is it possible that Vatican II isn’t necessarily as switching of tracks as much as it is a wake up call to see and value what we have almost lost?
I consider it a miracle that the Latin Mass is still around, what with all the agressiveness of trying to get rid of it by the liberals.
Story
Point taken! I see what you are saying. I think that it is a possibility, though I am not convinced that all the bishops were thinking that. I truly believe that some of the Council Bishops wanted something more liberal that they could use later on. I also agree with you that maybe God allowed it to go this far so that we could return back again to tradition. Thanks for bringing up that point.
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Shoshana
Guest
Pre-Vatican vs Post-Vatican. What can I think through all of this? The controvery will continue ad infinitam…Here are a few quotes to reflect on:
“I hear around me reformers who want to dismantle the Holy Sanctuary, destroy the universal flame o fthe Church, to discard all her adornments, and smite her with remorse for her historic past.” Eunenio Cardinal Pacelli, later Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), to Count Pietro Galeazzi.
"A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God, that His Son is only a symbol, a philosophy held by so many others, and in the churches Christians will search in vain for the red lamp, where God awaits them, like Magdalene weeping before the empty tomb, ‘Where have they taken HIM’ Pope Pius XII
“We observe elsewhere, with anxiety and some apprehension an undue fondness for innovation and tendency to stray from the path of truth and prudence. Certain plans and suggestions for the liturgical revival are mingled with principles with, either in fact or by implication, jeopardize the sacred cause they intend to promote and sometimes introduce errors.” Pope Piux XII
“The day the Church abandons her universal tongue (Latin) is the day before she returns to the catacombs.” Pope Pius XII
“The desire to restore everything indiscrimintaely to its ancient condition (antiquarianism) is neither wise nor praiseworthy. It would be wrong, for exmaple, to want the altar restored to its ancient form of table; to want black eliminated from the liturgical colors, and pictures and statues exluded from our churches; to require the crucifixes that does not represent the bitter sufferings of the divine Redeemer.” (Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Letter ‘Mediator Dei’
“The Catholic Church has a diginity far surpassing that of any merely human society. For it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.” Pope John XXIII, ‘Veterum Sapientiae’ 22 Feb. 1962
“There is great unrest at this time in the Church and what they are questioning is the faith. I am alarmed, when I reflect on the Catholic world, that non-Catholic thinking sometimes seems to prevail within Catholcism and it could happen that this non-Catholic thinking within Catholicism will become stronger in the future. But it will never represent the Church’s thinking. A small flock must survive, no matter how small it may be.” Pope Paul VI
to be continued…
“I hear around me reformers who want to dismantle the Holy Sanctuary, destroy the universal flame o fthe Church, to discard all her adornments, and smite her with remorse for her historic past.” Eunenio Cardinal Pacelli, later Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), to Count Pietro Galeazzi.
"A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God, that His Son is only a symbol, a philosophy held by so many others, and in the churches Christians will search in vain for the red lamp, where God awaits them, like Magdalene weeping before the empty tomb, ‘Where have they taken HIM’ Pope Pius XII
“We observe elsewhere, with anxiety and some apprehension an undue fondness for innovation and tendency to stray from the path of truth and prudence. Certain plans and suggestions for the liturgical revival are mingled with principles with, either in fact or by implication, jeopardize the sacred cause they intend to promote and sometimes introduce errors.” Pope Piux XII
“The day the Church abandons her universal tongue (Latin) is the day before she returns to the catacombs.” Pope Pius XII
“The desire to restore everything indiscrimintaely to its ancient condition (antiquarianism) is neither wise nor praiseworthy. It would be wrong, for exmaple, to want the altar restored to its ancient form of table; to want black eliminated from the liturgical colors, and pictures and statues exluded from our churches; to require the crucifixes that does not represent the bitter sufferings of the divine Redeemer.” (Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Letter ‘Mediator Dei’
“The Catholic Church has a diginity far surpassing that of any merely human society. For it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.” Pope John XXIII, ‘Veterum Sapientiae’ 22 Feb. 1962
“There is great unrest at this time in the Church and what they are questioning is the faith. I am alarmed, when I reflect on the Catholic world, that non-Catholic thinking sometimes seems to prevail within Catholcism and it could happen that this non-Catholic thinking within Catholicism will become stronger in the future. But it will never represent the Church’s thinking. A small flock must survive, no matter how small it may be.” Pope Paul VI
to be continued…
S
Shoshana
Guest
“There is nothing closer to our heart than to have those who are seperated from the fold of Christ return to it, but in no other way than the way pointed out by Christ.” Pope Leo XIII, Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae)
“Eucharistic devotion such as is noted in the silent visit by the devout in church must not be thought of as a conversation with God. This would assume that God was present there locally and in a confined way. To justify such an assertion shows a lack of understanding of the Christological mysteries of the very concept of God. This is repugnant to the serious thinking of the man who knows about the omnipresence of god. To go to Church on the ground that one man can visit God Who is present there is a senseless act which modern man rightfully rejects.” DIE SACRAMENTALE BEGRUNDUNG CHRISTLIKER EXISTEND, Cardianl Ratzinger.
Blessings,
Shoshana
“Eucharistic devotion such as is noted in the silent visit by the devout in church must not be thought of as a conversation with God. This would assume that God was present there locally and in a confined way. To justify such an assertion shows a lack of understanding of the Christological mysteries of the very concept of God. This is repugnant to the serious thinking of the man who knows about the omnipresence of god. To go to Church on the ground that one man can visit God Who is present there is a senseless act which modern man rightfully rejects.” DIE SACRAMENTALE BEGRUNDUNG CHRISTLIKER EXISTEND, Cardianl Ratzinger.
Blessings,
Shoshana
F
fix
Guest
The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres (other priests). Churches and altars will be sacked. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord."
“The demon will be especially implacable against the souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them.”
“. . . Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved.”
Third and the Last message on October 13, 1973
Our Lady of Akita
April, 1984 - Most Rev. John Shojiro Ito, Bishop of Niigata, Japan, after years of extensive investigation, declares the events of Akita, Japan, to be of supernatural origin, and authorises throughout the entire diocese the veneration of the Holy Mother of Akita. He said: “The message of Akita is the message of Fatima.”
June, 1988 - Vatican City - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gives definitive judgement on the Akita events and messages as reliable and worthy of belief.
“The demon will be especially implacable against the souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them.”
“. . . Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved.”
Third and the Last message on October 13, 1973
Our Lady of Akita
April, 1984 - Most Rev. John Shojiro Ito, Bishop of Niigata, Japan, after years of extensive investigation, declares the events of Akita, Japan, to be of supernatural origin, and authorises throughout the entire diocese the veneration of the Holy Mother of Akita. He said: “The message of Akita is the message of Fatima.”
June, 1988 - Vatican City - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gives definitive judgement on the Akita events and messages as reliable and worthy of belief.
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ble
Guest
I couldn’t answer the poll because my answer would not fall into any of the options.
I was born Post-Vatican II so I’ve never known what is like prior to that. The number 1 complaint I hear is that the Traditional Latin Mass was forbidden then but is now allowed again… I’ve heard wonderful things about the Latin Mass which I haven’t experience (although a few of the Masses I’ve been attending has some Latin phrases in them). I really like Gregorian chants.
With that said, I love the current Mass. Maybe somewhere in the future, they will be combined, the good from both world?
Warmest regards,
Benjamin
I was born Post-Vatican II so I’ve never known what is like prior to that. The number 1 complaint I hear is that the Traditional Latin Mass was forbidden then but is now allowed again… I’ve heard wonderful things about the Latin Mass which I haven’t experience (although a few of the Masses I’ve been attending has some Latin phrases in them). I really like Gregorian chants.
With that said, I love the current Mass. Maybe somewhere in the future, they will be combined, the good from both world?
Warmest regards,
Benjamin
O
oldschoolcath23
Guest
The question is, is the Catholic church supposed to “change” at all? The post-VII church acts as if it progressing toward some higher form of existence, and that at some unknown time it will reach this goal only through change. This is nothing but humanistic thinking that has seeped into the church during the 20th century.
The truth is, the Church was the sole possessor of truth *from the beginning; *the job of the church is make sure that the truth is preserved so that the last Catholics on earth will believe and practice as the first.
If VII was such a good thing then why did Pope Paul VI claim that the “smoke of satan” had entered the church? I think that there is more to it than simply liberals taking over the church.
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Ham1
Guest
Maybe, by “smoke of satan” Pope Paul VI was referring to those who opposed parts of Vatican II and the New Mass and ultimately fell into schism. What could be a greater triumph for satan than to convince orthodox Catholics to question the Pope and the Church?
Just a thought…
Just a thought…
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Catholic_I_am
Guest
There was too much stress on ecumenism, “We ARE the One True Church!”
I
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Mary1973
Guest
One thing I would like to read but have never found is a step by step explanation as to why each thing was changed from the Tridentine to the NO.
And something that cracks me up: we took out the statues and replaced them with ugly banners.
And something that cracks me up: we took out the statues and replaced them with ugly banners.
R
Richard_Lamb
Guest
Religious liberty is a God given right and Vatican 2 spooke af salvatio though the graces of the church to those who through not fault of their own were not catholic. This is consistent with a Merciful and Just God.
The Dogma of no salvation outside the church was not changed it was clarified.
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fix
Guest
Hardly, Paul VI was a weak man, but he knew the lefties were taking over. There are more lefty dissenters in schism than right wingers in schism. Look around at the bishops, liberal priests, liberated nuns and laity who embrace contraception, abortion, etc. The schism is a real one and it is almost entirely from the left.
The reform of the reform is long overdue.
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