Pre-VII Latin Mass compared to current EF

[consumedconvert]

I’m curious,

How do you old timers who have attended the current Extraordinary Form Mass feel it compares to mass pre-Vatican II? Are there striking differences? Are current EF masses more awkward because not as many are used to them, or are they more reverent because, well, not many are used to them?

 

[palmas85]

I’m curious,

How do you old timers who have attended the current Extraordinary Form Mass feel it compares to mass pre-Vatican II? Are there striking differences? Are current EF masses more awkward because not as many are used to them, or are they more reverent because, well, not many are used to them?

Most are about the same. At some where you have a lot of people who have never been it can get a bit haphazard. I’ve never been to one that was awkward. Some still have the double confeitor and others still have the leonine prayers, but not all by any means.

Overall they are about the same though.

 

[muffinmojo]

I’ve heard from some that the music, attitude, etc is better at many of the new EF Masses than the pre-V2 ones? Supposedly(I was far from alive), the Latin was more like gibberish in many areas pre-V2, the music was bleh, people slept/ignored the Mass, etc? From this, it led me to assume that maybe the introduction of the NO and the modernism was GOOD because it helped people realize what the alternative was and that they should renew the TLM? Idk…it’d be nice if at some point a revised Tridentine missal became the standard(with options for more vernacular, incense and music at every Mass regardless of High/Low, etc). The Tridentine missal and it’s celebration wasn’t perfect…it’s just far better than most NO Masses(I say this as someone who’s only been to a TLM once.)

 

[palmas85]

I’ve heard from some that the music, attitude, etc is better at many of the new EF Masses than the pre-V2 ones? Supposedly(I was far from alive), the Latin was more like gibberish in many areas pre-V2, the music was bleh, people slept/ignored the Mass, etc? From this, it led me to assume that maybe the introduction of the NO and the modernism was GOOD because it helped people realize what the alternative was and that they should renew the TLM? Idk…it’d be nice if at some point a revised Tridentine missal became the standard(with options for more vernacular, incense and music at every Mass regardless of High/Low, etc). The Tridentine missal and it’s celebration wasn’t perfect…it’s just far better than most NO Masses(I say this as someone who’s only been to a TLM once.)

Maybe some places. I served Mass for many years pre Vatican II and never experienced what you stated here.

 

[consumedconvert]

I’ve heard from some that the music, attitude, etc is better at many of the new EF Masses than the pre-V2 ones? Supposedly(I was far from alive), the Latin was more like gibberish in many areas pre-V2, the music was bleh, people slept/ignored the Mass, etc? From this, it led me to assume that maybe the introduction of the NO and the modernism was GOOD because it helped people realize what the alternative was and that they should renew the TLM? Idk…it’d be nice if at some point a revised Tridentine missal became the standard(with options for more vernacular, incense and music at every Mass regardless of High/Low, etc). The Tridentine missal and it’s celebration wasn’t perfect…it’s just far better than most NO Masses(I say this as someone who’s only been to a TLM once.)

My father, who was Catholic, makes it sound that way. But then again, he was Catholic, so I’m not sure he’s remembering properly.

 

[puzzleannie]

actually the Mass I remember is the dialogue Mass, and the only TLM(s) I have intended in recent years has the gospel read in English, but other than that, almost no “audience participation”. IMO the 1962 Mass and missal had already gone a long way to incorporating the liturgical reforms envisioned by early 20th c popes and liturgists. There was already support for liturgical music that retained the theology but incorporated cultural influences in which it would be used–Missa Luba comes to mind. The underpinning of Latin, with the vernacular readings and some other prayers, would have bridged the gap without destroying the unifying link of Latin. With the exception of the revised lectionary–which also was a long time in planning, not a brainchild of a postV2liturgist–I think it was well nigh perfect and cannot wait for it to become the norm, not “E”, any more, because it IS extraordinary.

you can talk to even members of the same family and their recollection will differ depending on if they usually attended the “high” Mass, or a low Mass.

 

[Freshman88]

I recall a priest who argued that the EF was taken away because of the abuses of the 40s and 50s. We lost our appreciation for the mass, and so the Good Lord has moved the Church into a liturgical crisis, so that we may rediscover what is truly important.

 

[ethelzguy]

I recall a priest who argued that the EF was taken away because of the abuses of the 40s and 50s. We lost our appreciation for the mass, and so the Good Lord has moved the Church into a liturgical crisis, so that we may rediscover what is truly important.

An interesting and probably quite valid assessment. From my recollection, we had become rather robotic in our Mass attendance.

I would be interested to see what today’s TLM is like, but the nearest one is over an hour away and at 6:30 Tuesday mornings.

 

[brigid12]

I converted to the Catholic Church post-VII, however I remember going to Mass with a girlfriend when we were young children and pre-VII. We didn’t really pay attention at all since we were under First Communion Age and it wasn’t expected. It must have been about 1962. All I have are impressions of a religious service taking place in a gymnasium (I guess they were building the new church), it was totally boring to everyone it seemed to me, the music was blah and I never desired to go back there.
My comparison, at that point, was going to church with my grandmother to her Episcopal church. They had a stone church with stained glass, a fairly good choir with lots of decent hymns for the congregation, and a minister who gave children hugs at the door. To me, those were the** most** important factors. BTW, they used the 1928 BCP, only male altar servers and knelt (all the time and including for the “consecration” and at the altar rail for communion). I loved it. I felt so sorry for my Catholic friend.
Since I was grown I was back in the “new” sanctuary of my childhood friend’s out of curiosity - after my conversion - and it was a little better than a gymnasium, but not much (besides, I knew that Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament was somewhere around) .

 

[palmas85]

I recall a priest who argued that the EF was taken away because of the abuses of the 40s and 50s. We lost our appreciation for the mass, and so the Good Lord has moved the Church into a liturgical crisis, so that we may rediscover what is truly important.

Interesting. What exactly were these abuses?

 

[rwoehmke]

Interesting. What exactly were these abuses?

Well, I didn’t at the time think of them as abuses, but maybe just “look backs” at how some things were on occasion.

People who seemed little interested in what was going on at the altar and actually praying their Rosary and not just holding it.

People who were obviously not following in the Missal and whose faces were vacant enough one could be pretty sure they were “not there.” We still have a few of these today in the NO.

Altar boys who did not comprehend the meaning of the Latin responses they were giving from memory or if memory failed “faking it.”

Priests who could knock off a daily low Mass in less than 20 minutes and altar boys who couldn’t finish a response before the priest was already well into the next prayer.

Mass during which the only obviously active participants were the priest, the altar boys, and the organist/cantor.

Probably others, like myself, who from age 13 or 14 till about age 30 (the closing of Vatican II, attended Mass mostly because “I had too.” I am still amazed that I continued as an altar boy or server till I graduated college at about age 22.

Now I admit freely that these situations were not what I would call extremely commonplace. There were and continue to be a lot a very devout and holy people and priests in our Church whether the Mass was and is the NO or the TLM.

 

[palmas85]

Well, I didn’t at the time think of them as abuses, but maybe just “look backs” at how some things were on occasion.

People who seemed little interested in what was going on at the altar and actually praying their Rosary and not just holding it.

People who were obviously not following in the Missal and whose faces were vacant enough one could be pretty sure they were “not there.” We still have a few of these today in the NO.

Altar boys who did not comprehend the meaning of the Latin responses they were giving from memory or if memory failed “faking it.”

Priests who could knock off a daily low Mass in less than 20 minutes and altar boys who couldn’t finish a response before the priest was already well into the next prayer.

Mass during which the only obviously active participants were the priest, the altar boys, and the organist/cantor.

Probably others, like myself, who from age 13 or 14 till about age 30 (the closing of Vatican II, attended Mass mostly because “I had too.” I am still amazed that I continued as an altar boy or server till I graduated college at about age 22.

Now I admit freely that these situations were not what I would call extremely commonplace. There were and continue to be a lot a very devout and holy people and priests in our Church whether the Mass was and is the NO or the TLM.

I notice that praying the rosary was the first one you brought up. It usually is in these cases. In fact, it is the one that is almost always brought up. I’m glad to see that you followed the script on that point.

Vacant faces is a new one, I hadn’t heard that one about the congregation before. Of course it is probably just an addition to the, how is it usually worded, no one knew what was going on? line. I wonder how you could have seen this, if you were serving at the altar as you state and were watching the Priest as you were supposed to do. Of course, I did have a friend who liked to sneak peeks at the cute girls that usually sat in front, but thats another story. He didn’t last too long anyway. Got booted off for not showing up for a 6:00am Mass once too often among other things…

Being an old altar boy myself I can tell you the rare altar boy who didn’t know the responses or know what they meant was not an altar boy for very long, at least not in New Orleans or the Philippines, both places where I served…

Twenty minute Traditional Masses?:bigyikes: You’ll have to do better than that on this forum my friend. We’ve had posters here that have seen them done in five minutes or less:thumbsup: Twenty minutes, Thats just about average for a daily Pauline isn’t it?

The only active participants the Priest, Altar Boy and Organist. Well, that would lead me to believe either they were the only ones there or that everyone there was fast asleep. I somehow doubt that either was the case, as surely someone there would have been praying or paying attention, so we’ll just put this one into the urban legend category with all the others.

I’m glad that you attended Mass even if it was because you had to. I would imagine that many today attend for exactly the same reason however, especially when you see the crowds exponentially increase around Easter.

You admit that these situations were not extremely commonplace. I would take that to mean that they very rarely happened. If they happened at all.

However this post was a lot better than most of the ones that get put up. It brought some new depth into the no one knew what was going on line.

Vacant faces, I’ll have to remember that one.

 

[deigloriam]

People who seemed little interested in what was going on at the altar and actually praying their Rosary and not just holding it.

What is wrong with praying the rosary at Mass? I have to say that one of my big N.O. complaints is that I can’t focus enough to pray the rosary.

 

[consumedconvert]

As a side note, there’s still an old timer around here who attends daily mass in the morning. He goes up to receive with a rosary wrapped around his hand.

Without getting into specifics, I would highly doubt that Christ is offended by our praying the “wrong” prayer at the wrong time.

 

[ethelzguy]

What is wrong with praying the rosary at Mass? I have to say that one of my big N.O. complaints is that I can’t focus enough to pray the rosary.

You ARE kidding, right?

You have the other 23 hours of the day to pray your rosary. Why must it be done during Mass? If you’re “focused” on praying your rosary, you’re obviously not focused on the Mass.

 

[Freshman88]

Interesting. What exactly were these abuses?

I think father would sum the abuses by saying they were rooted in a “lack of appreciation”.

Even the SSPX are the first to say that they don’t want to go back to pre-vat II days.

 

[rwoehmke]

Yes Palmas, we were blessed by having many altar boys and took turns serving a week at a time at a particular time. There were many cassocks in the closets for all to use, but each of us had our own surplice which our moms washed, starched and ironed between turns. No tennis shoes allowed. The older guys got out of class to serve funerals. I don’t remember, but I think marriages were always on Saturday late morning. We usually got a little stipend or gift which went into a fund and after school ended for the year, the assistant and a couple of the K of C’s took us to an amusement park. One was on Bob-Lo Island at the head of Lake Erie and we got to go there on a multi decked boat. There was a rail around an opening over the engine room and we could watch all the machinery that drove the boat.

As for serving and looking at the congregation, you may recall that their were parts of the Mass where we sat for a bit two on one side with the priest and two on the other side of the sanctuary. Except for the 5 AM masses there were always four altar boys. Looking at girls? Who at the age of 12 or 13 was even interested?

I had been a Religious Ed Instructor for high school age kids for about 20 years and I would say that adolescent boys with a lagging interest in attending Mass had nothing to do with TLM or NO. Its just adolescent boys in general. I did not intend to imply that that my lack of enthusiam was due to the form of the Mass.

As for not knowing the English meaning of most of the Latin prayers we recited, no one ever said that we needed to know. Obviously the very short ones we understood by osmosis. It has been the vernacular Mass that basically taught me the meaning of some of the longer ones. Never even occurred to me to look in my bilingual Sunday Missal to figure it out.

As for what I dragged up as possible abuses, I suppose discounting most of them might well be appropriate, but you did ask and I tried my best to answer from my memories of those olden days. I think a lot of us were at Mass because it was required to be there. As far as being required to follow or pray along with the priest, if one was not serving, I never really thought about it. Thus praying the rosary during Mass would have seemed very normal to me back then. Today, I would see it as being at least a little strange if not an abuse.

In some ways I feel like I sat myself up as a “strawman” for someone to shoot down. I was trying to give a sincere response.

 

[palmas85]

Yes Palmas, we were blessed by having many altar boys and took turns serving a week at a time at a particular time. There were many cassocks in the closets for all to use, but each of us had our own surplice which our moms washed, starched and ironed between turns. No tennis shoes allowed. The older guys got out of class to serve funerals. I don’t remember, but I think marriages were always on Saturday late morning. We usually got a little stipend or gift which went into a fund and after school ended for the year, the assistant and a couple of the K of C’s took us to an amusement park. One was on Bob-Lo Island at the head of Lake Erie and we got to go there on a multi decked boat. There was a rail around an opening over the engine room and we could watch all the machinery that drove the boat.

As for serving and looking at the congregation, you may recall that their were parts of the Mass where we sat for a bit two on one side with the priest and two on the other side of the sanctuary. Except for the 5 AM masses there were always four altar boys. Looking at girls? Who at the age of 12 or 13 was even interested?

I had been a Religious Ed Instructor for high school age kids for about 20 years and I would say that adolescent boys with a lagging interest in attending Mass had nothing to do with TLM or NO. Its just adolescent boys in general. I did not intend to imply that that my lack of enthusiam was due to the form of the Mass.

As for not knowing the English meaning of most of the Latin prayers we recited, no one ever said that we needed to know. Obviously the very short ones we understood by osmosis. It has been the vernacular Mass that basically taught me the meaning of some of the longer ones. Never even occurred to me to look in my bilingual Sunday Missal to figure it out.

As for what I dragged up as possible abuses, I suppose discounting most of them might well be appropriate, but you did ask and I tried my best to answer from my memories of those olden days. I think a lot of us were at Mass because it was required to be there. As far as being required to follow or pray along with the priest, if one was not serving, I never really thought about it. Thus praying the rosary during Mass would have seemed very normal to me back then. Today, I would see it as being at least a little strange if not an abuse.

In some ways I feel like I sat myself up as a “strawman” for someone to shoot down. I was trying to give a sincere response.

Yeah I think you were, but when all you can do is drag up the same old rote responses that we always get for abuses in the Traditional Mass it is kind of weak. I well remember an argument I had with a protestant in Boot Camp. He said the reason Catholics prayed the rosary anyway, was because they weren’t allowed to read the bible and they had to do something. I honestly think the old bugaboo about rosaries at Mass is really just more of the same. Did some people do so? Yep, mostly older people as I recall, and a high percentage of them, again at least in New Orleans, were people who didn’t know how to read or write or had very limited educational backgrounds…

I can honestly tell you that not only were we taught what the responses were and what they meant, we had to know them before we ever served. Not only that, we had a class, an actual classroom setting in which we went over the entire Mass, not only our responses but everything else as well. We had a booklet called Study the Mass which described everything that happened in the Mass, the meanings behind the gestures, the reasons for them to begin with, the Priests actions and prayers and what they meant. It also touched on the history of the mass and how it developed into what it was. If I’m not mistaken that class was in the summer before went went into either 6th or 7th grade. It was tough.

But we learned and we knew and we passed that on down to the younger boys. Now that was in New Orleans, and as you may have guessed by now from mine and other posters, Brother Rolf among them, Catholicism in New Orleans in those days was a bit different a bit extreme and everywhere. It colored everything you did and said. I remember vividly that everyone it seemed crossed themselves when passing a Church. Sisters didn’t pay to ride on city buses, but priests did:thumbsup: There was perpetual adoration and Novenas going on just about everywhere and the Rosary was said on the radio at 8:00pm every night. Catholics in public school were excused at 2:00pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays to go to Catechism classes and there was never ever any meat in public school lunches on Friday at all… Corpus Christi processions could have hundreds or even more participants and they were a sight to behold. The three big holidays in New Orleans, Mardi Gras, St Patricks and St Joseph’s days are all Catholic based. In fact I remember that the Police cleared out Bourbon street at midnight Ash Wednesday and the bars would actually shut down. You would see crowds of people at St Louis Cathedral lined up waiting to get their ashes. The ad section in the newspapers always had many ads thanking the Blessed Virgin or St so and so for favor granted. Car radios were turned down when passing Churches and cemetaries. Hundreds of people went to the shrine at St Roch Campo Santo to pray to be healed and the room off to the side of the Altar was full of braces, crutches etc as evidence of healings done there.

So maybe my experience was a bit different in that area.

As far as praying the Mass along with the Priest that was drilled into us by the sisters constantly and I mean constantly. So for me, not praying along with the Priest seemed out of place and strange, and as I recall most people did it. So it seems that maybe, just maybe the religious education that you received was not as extreme as I and others received.

In any event, the manner that you posted was much more even balanced then are most and if I came off as heavy handed in my response I apologize. I often get carried away when the only objections or abuses that are brought up are the same old tired things that have been repeated ad nauseum since the days of the reformation.

 

[rwoehmke]

Man o man, I became an altar boy in fourth grade in Detroit during WW II, was confirmed in fourth grade. We had a little orange booklet to learn the Latin responses and started off serving at the 5 AM Saturday and Sunday Masses where we learned the movements and procedures on the job so to speak. I don’t recall any formal class room time spent on it at all. Yes, I would say our experiences were miles apart. Thanks for the apology.

By the by, I was taught my Baltimore Catechism by my Lutheran Dad. When it came time for his funeral many years later, my sister recounted this to the Missouri Synod Lutheran Minister who said Dad should never have done that. He made a promise when he got married to my Mom who was Catholic and he kept it. Except for the two years in Detroit we lived on a farm. It was my Dad who drove us to Catholic School and to Church. Catholic kids couldn’t ride the school bus in those days.

 

[consumedconvert]

Yeah I think you were, but when all you can do is drag up the same old rote responses that we always get for abuses in the Traditional Mass it is kind of weak. I well remember an argument I had with a protestant in Boot Camp. He said the reason Catholics prayed the rosary anyway, was because they weren’t allowed to read the bible and they had to do something. I honestly think the old bugaboo about rosaries at Mass is really just more of the same. Did some people do so? Yep, mostly older people as I recall, and a high percentage of them, again at least in New Orleans, were people who didn’t know how to read or write or had very limited educational backgrounds…

I can honestly tell you that not only were we taught what the responses were and what they meant, we had to know them before we ever served. Not only that, we had a class, an actual classroom setting in which we went over the entire Mass, not only our responses but everything else as well. We had a booklet called Study the Mass which described everything that happened in the Mass, the meanings behind the gestures, the reasons for them to begin with, the Priests actions and prayers and what they meant. It also touched on the history of the mass and how it developed into what it was. If I’m not mistaken that class was in the summer before went went into either 6th or 7th grade. It was tough.

But we learned and we knew and we passed that on down to the younger boys. Now that was in New Orleans, and as you may have guessed by now from mine and other posters, Brother Rolf among them, Catholicism in New Orleans in those days was a bit different a bit extreme and everywhere. It colored everything you did and said. I remember vividly that everyone it seemed crossed themselves when passing a Church. Sisters didn’t pay to ride on city buses, but priests did:thumbsup: There was perpetual adoration and Novenas going on just about everywhere and the Rosary was said on the radio at 8:00pm every night. Catholics in public school were excused at 2:00pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays to go to Catechism classes and there was never ever any meat in public school lunches on Friday at all… Corpus Christi processions could have hundreds or even more participants and they were a sight to behold. The three big holidays in New Orleans, Mardi Gras, St Patricks and St Joseph’s days are all Catholic based. In fact I remember that the Police cleared out Bourbon street at midnight Ash Wednesday and the bars would actually shut down. You would see crowds of people at St Louis Cathedral lined up waiting to get their ashes. The ad section in the newspapers always had many ads thanking the Blessed Virgin or St so and so for favor granted. Car radios were turned down when passing Churches and cemetaries. Hundreds of people went to the shrine at St Roch Campo Santo to pray to be healed and the room off to the side of the Altar was full of braces, crutches etc as evidence of healings done there.

So maybe my experience was a bit different in that area.

Sounds like heaven! Ah, wish our city could be like that now. Of course, ours never was.

I was surprised to learn in a local history exibit that one of our oldest churches in town was burned down by the KKK in (I think) 1919.

I live in twin cities, and currently attend the only parish in my city (the two cities are very very interconnected…) Anyway, it seems there was considerable resistance to the “mission”, as it was then, when it moved in in 1962.

The gentleman who founded our town founded it as a dry town, supposedly to make it less attractive to Catholics.

And, by the by, I’ve heard that the only Catholic signer of the Constitution was never allowed to vote or hold office. I can’t cite that, btw. It really makes you think about the sacrifices of our forebears.