Precedence of Patriarchs, Cardinals, and Popes

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bpbasilphx said:
Keep in mind that an Eastern Patriarch takes precedence over a Latin cardinal.
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I know this thread is old but only just come across this.

Your statement is incorrect. All Cardinals take precedence over all bishops (Latin) and hierarchs (Eastern) including those hierarchs who are patriarchs.

It is a convention that if a patriarch is elevated to the cardinalate he is made a cardinal of the episcopal order but he ranks below the six Latin Catholic cardinals of the episcopal order.

The hierarchy actually goes like this Supreme Pontiff > Dean of the College of Cardinals > Sub-Dean of the College of Cardinals > the other 4 Latin cardinals of the episcopal order > Eastern patriarchs who are cardinals > Eastern major archbishops who are cardinals (they too are always made cardinals of the episcopal order) > Latin bishops who are cardinals of the presbyteral order > Latin bishops who are cardinals of the diaconal order > Latin priests who are cardinals of the diaconal order > Eastern patriarchs who are not cardinals > Easter major archbishops who are not cardinals.
 
Matt it goes Pope, Patriarchs, Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests. Now as far as it goes WITHIN the College of Cardinals a Priest can be a Cardinal Bishop while a Patriarch can be a Cardinal Deacon.
 
Matthew,
That may be true within the INTERNAL hierarchy of the sacred college, but within the Church Universal, patriarchs rank next to the pope. This is the ancient tradition of the Church and was clarified at Vatican II’. Patriarchs head churches Sui iuris…how could they be inferior to the heads of local Latin dioceses or Curia offices?
 
smad0142 said:
Matt it goes Pope, Patriarchs, Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests. Now as far as it goes WITHIN the College of Cardinals a Priest can be a Cardinal Bishop while a Patriarch can be a Cardinal Deacon.
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There are three Patriarchs that are Cardinal Bishops:

Ignace Daoud, Patriarch Emeritus of Antioch for the Syrians
Nasrallah Sfeir, Patriarch of Antioch for the Maronites
Emmanuel III Delly, Patriarch of Babylon for the Chaldeans

gcatholic.com/hierarchy/patriarchs.htm
gcatholic.com/hierarchy/majorarchbishops.htm

Cardinal Rank (gcatholic.com/hierarchy/cardinals-alive-precedence.htm)
  1. Cardinal Dean: Sodano (Cardinal-Bishop since 1994.01.10)
  2. Cardinal Vice-Dean: Etchegaray (Cardinal-Bishop since 1998.06.24)
Other Roman-Rite Cardinal-Bishops:
(precedence is determined by the date of promotion to the suburbicarian see)
3. Re (2002.10.01)
4. Arinze (2005.04.25)
5. Bertone (2008.05.10)
6. Saraiva Martins (2009.02.24)

Eastern-Rite Cardinal Patriarchs:
7. Sfeir (1994.11.26) (Maronite)
8. Daoud (2001.02.21) (Syrian)
9. Delly (2007.11.24) (Chaldean)

Also there are the Major Archbishops that are also Cardinals:

Cardinal Lubomyr Husar (Ukrainian)
Cardinal Varkey Vithayathil (Syro Malabar)
 
smad0142 said:
Matt it goes Pope, Patriarchs, Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests. Now as far as it goes WITHIN the College of Cardinals a Priest can be a Cardinal Bishop while a Patriarch can be a Cardinal Deacon.
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I am sorry but your are mistaken. Cardinals take precedence after the Pope and before all other Catholic bishops (Latin or Eastern). You say Patriarchs can be Cardinal Deacons but you need to be more precise. What kind of Patriarchs do you mean?

Patriarchs of Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris are always made cardinals of the episcopal order and they rank after the six Latin Rite cardinals of the episcopal order. Likewise Major Archbishops of Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris can be made cardinals and again always of the episcopal order. Other Hierarchs of Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris are not made Cardinals.

If a Latin Patriarch (East Indies, Jerusalem, Lisbon, or Venice) were elevated to the cardinalate they would probably be made cardinals of the presbyteral order like other Latin residential bishops.

Priests of the Latin Catholic Church can be made cardinals. If a Latin Rite priest is made a cardinal he has to be ordained as a bishop unless the Pope grants him a rescript exempting him from this requirement. If he is granted such rescript then he can only be a cardinal of the diaconal order.
 
twf said:
Matthew,
That may be true within the INTERNAL hierarchy of the sacred college, but within the Church Universal, patriarchs rank next to the pope. This is the ancient tradition of the Church and was clarified at Vatican II’. Patriarchs head churches Sui iuris…how could they be inferior to the heads of local Latin dioceses or Curia offices?
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Your answer confuses governance with precedence. In a Latin Catholic diocese the Vicar General will usually be the second most powerful person in the diocese after the bishop. That does not mean he is the second in order of precedence. The provost of the cathedral chapter takes first place in the order of precedence amongst the diocesan clergy even though he may have little power or governance in the diocese.

A Patriarch who is the head of an Eastern Catholic Church sui iuris is obviously more ‘powerful’ than say the archbishop of a Latin diocese. However, if that Latin archbishop is a cardinal he will be higher in the order of precedence than Eastern Patriarchs who are not cardinals. It’s just a case of precedence not one of governance. In fact being made a cardinal gives no bishop any more power. The title of cardinal may add gravitas to what a cardinal does or says but a cardinalate does not convey any power. It is just an honorary title.

Look at any papal ceremony in the Vatican and see where the cardinals are placed and where the heads of Eastern Catholic churches sui iuris who do not hold cardinalates are placed.

I was only ever making the distinction in terms of the order of precedence (which to be be quite simplistic about it often boils down to where you’ll be in a procession). Actually “power” or “authority” or what the Church usually calls the power of governance is something different.

Even then that doesn’t always hold true. Look at John Paul II’s reign. H.E. Angelo Cardinal Sodano was Secretary of State and H.E. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Who ranked higher in order of precedence? H.E. Angelo Cardinal Sodano. Who had more power of governance? H.E. Angelo Cardinal Sodano. Who really had more power? H.E. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.
 
The Cerimonial of Bishops says Eastern Rite Patriarchs hold higher precedence than Cardinals, except when the college of cardinals is processing into conclave.
 
Aramis said:
The Cerimonial of Bishops says Eastern Rite Patriarchs hold higher precedence than Cardinals, except when the college of cardinals is processing into conclave.
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A lot of what I have said in this thread is relying on my (fallible) memory. So since then I’ve being doing a little research to try to back up what I am saying in case I am asked to do so.

Coincidentally, I thought the Ceremonial of Bishops might be helpful. So, I had a glance at it. Unfortunately it doesn’t have an index which would make life easier. At cursory glance at the contents page didn’t suggest where I might find the info.

Aramis I would be most grateful if you could direct me to the appropriate bit in the Ceremonial of Bishops.

I also found that Canon 58 of the Code of Canons of Oriental Churches says: “Patriarchs of Eastern Churches precede all bishops of any degree everywhere in the world, with due regard for special norms of precedence established by the Roman Pontiff”. Now, of course that goes against my case. However, I am fairly sure that the Roman Pontiff has established special norms of prededence concerning that status of cardinals in relation to Eastern Patriarchs but so for my researches haven’t discovered the relevant document.
 
Look under processions. That’s were it was last I looked. And the special order does NOT trump cardinals over patriarchs, because there is no more recent special ordering (according to “The Church Visible”) than the CCEO, at least for general use.

It also cites CURRENT patriarchs above cardinals, but retired patriarchs would be lesser.

However, there are only a few Eastern patriarchs canonically, and His Beattitude Lubomyr is NOT one of them; he’s canonically a Major Archibishop, as are several others styled patriarch or catholicos. And Major Archbishops are below Cardinal-Patriarchs and Cardinal-Bishops in the precendence.
 
Aramis said:
Look under processions. That’s were it was last I looked. And the special order does NOT trump cardinals over patriarchs, because there is no more recent special ordering (according to “The Church Visible”) than the CCEO, at least for general use.

It also cites CURRENT patriarchs above cardinals, but retired patriarchs would be lesser.

However, there are only a few Eastern patriarchs canonically, and His Beattitude Lubomyr is NOT one of them; he’s canonically a Major Archibishop, as are several others styled patriarch or catholicos. And Major Archbishops are below Cardinal-Patriarchs and Cardinal-Bishops in the precendence.
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That reference was disingenuous. The section on Processions does not give any order of precedence for bishops. It cross references to other sections in the Ceremonial regarding specific processions but not of these gives an order of precedence for bishops. The closest it even comes to mentioning more than one bishop is when it describes Eucharistic Processions where it states that bishops in Eucharistic vestments precede the Blessed Sacrament and any bishops in choir dress follow the Blessed Sacrament.
 
So far in this thread all posts seem to be the personal opinion of the posters, including myself.

Does any one know if there is an official order of precedence for bishops/hierarchs published by a legitimate Church authority, preferably the Holy See.

Thanks, MH.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
So far in this thread all posts seem to be the personal opinion of the posters, including myself.

Does any one know if there is an official order of precedence for bishops/hierarchs published by a legitimate Church authority, preferably the Holy See.

Thanks, MH.
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Do you mean rank, for ceremonial use?
 
Matthew_Holford said:
Order of precedence, so mainly ceremonial use. But, yes would appreciate one for rank as well.
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The rank is for precedence. I do not know of an official Vatican list including precedence, but the Vatican site below, has interesting information on them.

Independent lists:
catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/scardx1.html
gcatholic.com/hierarchy/cardinals-alive-precedence.htm

Vatican College of Cardinals:
vatican.va/news_services/press/documentazione/documents/cardinali_index_en.html
 
It seems to me the ceremonial “order of precedence” is more academic than anything else. I say that mainly because its application is extremely limited: it certainly would apply at an Oecumenical Council, or at a papal funeral or papal enthronement, but otherwise how often does it come into play? (While they probably exist, I’ve had no luck locating an appropriate video or even a photo from any of the above events.)

Anyway, one person I can think of who might be able to provide the official details is Mgr Guido Marini.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
It is a convention that if a patriarch is elevated to the cardinalate he is made a cardinal of the episcopal order
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That so-called “convention” was actually only begun by PP Bl John XXIII (after 1960, if memory serves), and revived after 1978.

Yes, that means there was a partial gap under Paul VI: at the time, it was decided in Rome (and to me, rightly so) not to offer the “red hat” to a canonically elected Patriarch since he is ex officio superior to the strictly honorific title of Cardinal (which, in any case, belongs solely to the Latin Church). One example comes to mind, that being the Maronite Patriarch who was enthroned in 1975 after the demise of his predecessor. He was only given the “red hat” after 1978 (I don’t recall the exact year), by Paul VI’s 2nd successor when the incipient policy outlined above was (to me, most unfortunately) scuttled.

As a partial aside, it was rumored (more than mere “rumor” in fact, since this came from well-placed inside sources) that the intent was to ultimately grant Patriarchs (or equivalent) an ex officio vote in Conclave. With Paul VI’s demise the “plan” never transpired, and his 2nd successor ultimately (and again, to me, most unfortunately) revived the “convention” of PP Bl John XXIII.
 
gmcbroom said:
So does it take an Arch Bishop to consecrate a Bishop? Or can any Bishop elevate a Priest to Bishop.
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No. Any bishop can be a consecrator (or co-consecrator) of a new bishop.

Archbishops rank higher than bishops only by virtue of the dignity they have received. It has nothing to do with Holy Orders.
 
For precedence at court and liturgical ceremonies, the cardinal bishops outrank the cardinal priests and deacons, cardinal priests outrank the cardinal deacons, and within each order, precedence is determined by date of appointment. The distinction between the three types of cardinal is honorific. Pope John XIII made all cardinals bishops so they would have precedence over patriarchs at Vatican II.

Ref: Inside the Vatican: the politics and organization of the Catholic Church by Thomas J. Reese, pp. 67, 292
 
gmcbroom said:
So does it take an Arch Bishop to consecrate a Bishop? Or can any Bishop elevate a Priest to Bishop.
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Without getting too technical I think we need to be clear here. Any bishop can consecrate another bishop. However, any bishop cannot elevate a priest to bishop. Only the Pope can decide who becomes a bishop. In other words only the Pope can elevate a priest to the episcopate.

Usually, three bishops consecrate a new bishop. I believe a consecration is valid even if one bishop does it. In practice, all the bishops at the ordination of a new bishop they their hands on the head of the priest being ordained as a bishop.

By convention a diocesan bishop would have his metropolitan as his principal consecrator; an auxiliary bishop would have his diocesan bishop as his principal consecrator. However, in the Pope’s Apostolic Mandate that elevates a priest to a bishop the Pope can decree who the new bishop’s consecrators will be.
 
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