Predestination (2)

[Will_B]

I have been attending RCIA with the candidates and the elect. This past Tuesday (Mar 2) the topic of predestination came up and my :hypno: head has been swimming since…

Here is the concept… God knows all – Past, present and future.

He knew before he created the world that:
Adam and Eve would sin.
Mary would say yes.
Adolf Hitler would send thousands upon thousand Jews to the gas chamber.
JFK would be assassinated in 1963

Yet we have “Free Will” to make choices… But God knows the choices we will make before we make them… Seems like a paradox???

It would be like sitting down to a chess game and your opponent knows all your moves before you make them… Why play the game?

Or like Shakespeare said “All the worlds a stage”… Are we but actors acting out God’s script? And if we refuse to play the part, that refusal was written into the script anyway and we are still acting according to the script??

Was Judas a pawn in the crucifixion of Christ? He had no choice (even though he had Free Will) but to sell out Jesus and hang himself?? >> The script was written and he had to play out the part??

Lets say today – Baby boy is born and baby girl is born… In the year 2028 these two get together and sin… A baby is conceived and the girl makes the choice to have an abortion… Did God know these events would occur today (when boy and girl were born)… Lets know say the the boy chose not to sin with the girl… Did that surprise God? Or was the script really written that way from the beginning???

Help… :banghead: I don’t want to believe this is what predestination is, but it seems that’s the way it is… Even though we say we have “Free Will” we really don’t…

 

[Schn]

Yes, it’s a contradiction.
And yes, people will make fancy walls of text to try to get around it, generally with special pleading.
And no, none of them will actually address the central problem.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Yet we have “Free Will” to make choices… But God knows the choices we will make before we make them… Seems like a paradox???

This subject confuses a lot of people, but it is really not that complicated. Just because God knows what choice a person will make, it does not mean God forced them to make the choice.

God knows all things. He knows, not only what choice we will make, but He knows what the outcome would be if we made a different choice. God knows every possible choice we could make, and every possible outcome of every possible choice. If He did not know this, He would not be all knowing.

Just because God knows all things, it does not mean we do not have a free will. If you watch a repeat of funniest home vidoes, and you know the child is going to hit his dad in the groin with the baseball bat, you did not cause it to happen. So too with God, just because He knows all things, it does not mean the person lacks free choice.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Lest Schn accuses me of not addressing the point, let me comment on your examples.

Was Judas a pawn in the crucifixion of Christ? He had no choice (even though he had Free Will) but to sell out Jesus and hang himself?? >> The script was written and he had to play out the part??

Judas had a choice, but from all eternity God knew what choice he would make (since God knows all things). God is not limited by time, as you and I are. God sees all the events of time at once. Let’s say that a ruler represented time. Each inch of the ruler is equivilant to 1000 years. If we were on inch 5, all those that preceeded it would be the past, and all those in front of inch 5 would be the future. God sees all of time at once, just as you and I would when viewing the ruler from above. God knew what choice Judas would make before he made the choice, not because Judas lacked free will, but because God is all knowing.

Lets say today – Baby boy is born and baby girl is born… In the year 2028 these two get together and sin… A baby is conceived and the girl makes the choice to have an abortion… Did God know these events would occur today (when boy and girl were born)… Lets know say the the boy chose not to sin with the girl… Did that surprise God? Or was the script really written that way from the beginning???

God was not surprised, and neither were the people forced to do what they freely chose to do. They used their free will to act contrary to God’s laws, and God, who is all knowing, knew they would make that choice. If they would have chosed to obey God, He would have known that as well.

Even though we say we have “Free Will” we really don’t…

Just because God knows all things, it does not mean we have no free will. You have a choice to either respond to this post, or ignore it. God already knows which choice you will make, but you yourself are free to choose either.

 

[Cristian_B]

Free will is when our future is based on our own actions. If someone knows what your future will be doesn’t mean that you won’t make that future.

 

[Cristian_B]

Help… :banghead: I don’t want to believe this is what predestination is, but it seems that’s the way it is… Even though we say we have “Free Will” we really don’t…

So just because God knew it means that the boys weren’t guilty of sin? You have free will when your future is a consequence of what you decided to do or what you did. Since God knows, that doesn’t mean He made you do it. So you are no predestined, because you yourself chose to do it.

 

[Will_B]

I know what everyone is saying… However, if God knows the choices we make before we make them then He knows all we will ever do from the day we are conceived until death… Since He knows all, how can we possibly change it unless we can surprise God.

It’s like Ebenezer Scrooge in “A Christmas Carol”… Ebenezer can only do what Charles Dickens writes… The author writes the story and the actors act it out… Ebenezer could not have said Bah Humbug, unless it was written… He could not choose to do anything different then what Charles Dickens wrote…

If God knows all before we do it, it must be because he wrote the big book of life and we are all actors on a stage playing out our parts…

In other words, no matter what I do… No matter what you do… God has known since the beginning of time we would do it… If we do something different, then either “We surprise God” or “Our something different was just a part of the script anyway & we really didn’t change a thing”

Sorry — I still need help understanding how we can have both “Free Will” and Predestination ???

 

[Cristian_B]

I know what everyone is saying… However, if God knows the choices we make before we make them then He knows all we will ever do from the day we are conceived until death… Since He knows all, how can we possibly change it unless we can surprise God.

It’s like Ebenezer Scrooge in “A Christmas Carol”… Ebenezer can only do what Charles Dickens writes… The author writes the story and the actors act it out… Ebenezer could not have said Bah Humbug, unless it was written… He could not choose to do anything different then what Charles Dickens wrote…

If God knows all before we do it, it must be because he wrote the big book of life and we are all actors on a stage playing out our parts…

In other words, no matter what I do… No matter what you do… God has known since the beginning of time we would do it… If we do something different, then either “We surprise God” or “Our something different was just a part of the script anyway & we really didn’t change a thing”

Sorry — I still need help understanding how we can have both “Free Will” and Predestination ???

But what if He looked in the future and wrote it? He didn’t made it up. He knows the future, therefore he just wrote what we will do.

 

[peeteyg]

In the garden of eden god says we can eat of any tree we want except the tree of good and evil. We were given a choice, we chose to sin. Satan said we would be like god and because of our pride (just like satan) we chose death. Since we had knowledge of Good and evil god prevented us from eating of the tree of life, or else we would have had eternal life.

There is a difference between Predestination and Pre-Determination. This is totally only seen from the point of view of god. We live in real time and can only look backward at the past to know what we have done. God kinda views our future the way we see our past, we know what we have done (past) and god knows what we will do (future). Just because he knows what we will do doesn’t mean he determines what we will do. He allowed (free will) adam and eve to eat the fruit even though he knew what they would do.

This is the cool thing about Genesis. We see that god sets in motion the plan for salvation in the Proto-evangelium or first gospel. It speaks of the coming of Mary and Jesus in opposition to Satan. Man was in the presence of god and chose to love god freely but yet sinned given a choice. Jesus came and freed man from sin and gave us the holy spirit to guide us to truth, something that Adam and Eve didn’t have. We now can repent of sin and accept jesus as our savior and be saved. Of course we have to persevere and salvation can be lost.

Many are called and few are chosen. We are unaware of who the chosen or elect are but god knows them and has since before they were born. God wills that all man be saved and come to repentnce.

 

[Murphs10]

Only time for a quick reply, but remember there are many mysteries that are beyond our comprehension. This is where the role of faith is so important. God instructs us to walk by faith and not by sight.

The Bible makes clear to us that God is both all knowing and that we are able to make choices in our lives. This is hard to comprehend, but so is the concept of Jesus being 100% Divine and 100% Human, but most people have no problem accepting that through faith. The seeming contradiciton you bring up is no different and is of God as well.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I know what everyone is saying… However, if God knows the choices we make before we make them then He knows all we will ever do from the day we are conceived until death… Since He knows all, how can we possibly change it unless we can surprise God.

It’s like Ebenezer Scrooge in “A Christmas Carol”… Ebenezer can only do what Charles Dickens writes… The author writes the story and the actors act it out… Ebenezer could not have said Bah Humbug, unless it was written… He could not choose to do anything different then what Charles Dickens wrote…

If God knows all before we do it, it must be because he wrote the big book of life and we are all actors on a stage playing out our parts…

In other words, no matter what I do… No matter what you do… God has known since the beginning of time we would do it… If we do something different, then either “We surprise God” or “Our something different was just a part of the script anyway & we really didn’t change a thing”

Sorry — I still need help understanding how we can have both “Free Will” and Predestination ???

God predestines ALL to grace that is sufficient to gain eternal salvation without prejudice to His Omnipotent knowledge of what each soul will elect. But here is the subtle bit - God does not predestine all to glory (salvation) for the very reason that He permits humankind to participate through freewill to elect each soul’s own destiny within the fabric of God’s Divine Providence that one is born into. We are each created for a purpose that minimally always includes “to know and love God” but also to participate in the instrumentality of bringing forth the greater glory of His Kingdom. Like an orchestra God is conducting all of Creation toward His objective end - which is to bring glory to His Son - Jesus. Those that are predestined to Glory are the saints aka “the elect”. These are those who through free choice availed themselves of the grace God gave them access to and let it work within them.

Of course God foresees each and every soul that will choose to cooperate with grace and be saved. But God does not predestine anyone to hell - that would be a contradiction of His Justice and is what a sect of the Calvinist believe (creating souls just to be damned as instruments of His wrath). Just because God knows what each soul will do does not make God complicit in forcing His will on another. God is just and fair - he gives all a chance to prove themselves, forge their own identity and character and choose their portion in the afterlife. In fact, the natural gravity of sin progressively brings the wicked to their knees to repent and seek God’s help (which He is always ready to give). Only the most hardened, obstinate and spiritually blinded souls will persist in their escalating depravity and wickedness to their own destruction. But it is also the nature of sin to sear the conscience and spiritually blind those who give themselves to sin and further increase the lure of concupiscence to pull one back into the mire of sin to repeat it. Some might say “well God can kill at any time He wishes and send a person who was good all their life to hell in the one instant they did something bad.” – so that puts God in the role of predestining some to hell. But this sort of irrational fear is really showing a lack of trust in God to imagine He keeps soul alive just long enough to do some damnable offense. This is the same irrational fear that motivates such perverse doctrines as “once saved always saved” so people could put their faith in human guarantees rather than trusting in God and in themselves as children of God to act and behave as such.

This topic constantly amazed me to see that God is so benevolent that He will NOT force us to love Him. He could of course easily do this by revealing Himself in all His Glory and flood us with His majesty and irresistible grace. But that would be an unauthentic love and besides it would so overwhelm our human nature that we would immediately perish in an unresolvable pang of joy. This is the very reason God came in human form - to speak to us and relate to us as a divine-human so we could also relate to Him and not be afraid to approach Him. But in heaven we are to be elevated as new creatures closer to the divine-human nature of Christ so that we can love the Father in a way that God can return authentic love and our elevated nature is suitable to receive and return it in kind.

Yes, God is so benevolent that He will not dictate and force us to a predetermined script for our lives. We are each as a thread that is knit into Divine Providence based on what God knows each of us will choose to do with our lives. Nothing we do can take away from God’s objective end. Those who cave to wickedness serve God in spite of their poor choices while those who choose God just add to the glory and further Divine Providence along as God’s instrument. That is really amazing - God let’s us each author our own final destiny within the framework of His Divine Plan through Free Choice - without prejudice of the knowledge He has (for better or worse).

Grace is still made available to all as a free gift for the taking. But the wicked must know too that God can elect to harden their hearts or take their live back at any moment they sin so that their choices become irrevocable. This is why no one should ever sin and why it is suicidal to presume upon God’s Mercy to be available in the “morning after” one commits a grave sin. Such may wake up before God’s Throne for an accounting…

James

 

[peeteyg]

James, you are one deep cat ! I like the gravity of sin pulling us to our knees. I have been having a “battle” with my best friend over this very issue. It is so frustrating to bring up what I consider good points and have him tell me I sound like a Jehovahs witness. All this while he spouts his Calvinist viewpoint, but behind the cloak of Sola Scriptura. I appreciate hearing someone with a like mind and view. I thought my post was decent before yours but I like the way you think. Amen Brother

 

[CentralFLJames]

James, you are one deep cat ! I like the gravity of sin pulling us to our knees. I have been having a “battle” with my best friend over this very issue. It is so frustrating to bring up what I consider good points and have him tell me I sound like a Jehovahs witness. All this while he spouts his Calvinist viewpoint, but behind the cloak of Sola Scriptura. I appreciate hearing someone with a like mind and view. I thought my post was decent before yours but I like the way you think. Amen Brother

God gives us free choice as an authentic gift. Choices have eternal consequences - for better for worse with respect to our own souls and impacts on others. This is what the second judgement is all about - God reveals the extent of every soul’s good and bad deeds to show how it effected each and every creature in history. If we could not choose to sin then we would not have an authentic freewill and that means we could not love God by choosing to do good over evil. Our acts are expressions of our inner disposition - loving or hateful/selfish. It is the necessity of Love, the essence of God, that drives the necessity for freewill so we can elect to choose God over Satan or not. We must serve one or the other - there are no other choices no matter how the conditions are disguised through Satan’s illusions.

But there is also another reason why God permits man to choose to do evil - it is not only to make it possible for humankind to elect to love God (with whole heart, mind, body and soul) but also to manifest God’s infinite Mercy - which is also an expression of His Love.

Here it is in scripture:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

James

 

[Schn]

No one has really addressed the fundamental contradiction here - we cannot surprise god, and yet we’re supposed to have free will.

 

[peeteyg]

Don’t think that god doesn’t get angry with us. He has destroyed cities due to sin. He has been talked out of destroying cities by Abraham and Moses. He was upset when Adam and Eve said they were naked, he said of cain and abel that his blood cries out. He allows us to have free will and sometimes our actions are evil. We cannot do anything that he doesn’t know already but it is contrary to god to sin. We cannot suprise god, or do something that he didn’t know about. But we live life in real time, he is the creator of time and stands outside of it. He says I have placed before you life and death, choose life.

 

[Schn]

Don’t think that god doesn’t get angry with us. He has destroyed cities due to sin. He has been talked out of destroying cities by Abraham and Moses. He was upset when Adam and Eve said they were naked, he said of cain and abel that his blood cries out. He allows us to have free will and sometimes our actions are evil. We cannot do anything that he doesn’t know already but it is contrary to god to sin. We cannot suprise god, or do something that he didn’t know about. But we live life in real time, he is the creator of time and stands outside of it. He says I have placed before you life and death, choose life.

He knows what is going to happen. We can’t change it. Therefore no free will.

 

[Syntax]

No one has really addressed the fundamental contradiction here - we cannot surprise god, and yet we’re supposed to have free will.

That’s not a contradiction. As always, you lack an argument and prefer to jeer.

 

[Cristian_B]

He knows what is going to happen. We can’t change it. Therefore no free will.

But it doesn’t change the fact that you did it, and not Him.

 

[Schn]

But it doesn’t change the fact that you did it, and not Him.

Never said he did it, it’s just that the course of the future is already known by god. Therefore, we may think we have choice, but it is an illusion. God already knows.

 

[CentralFLJames]

No one has really addressed the fundamental contradiction here - we cannot surprise god, and yet we’re supposed to have free will.

I think you are creating your own paradox. Why is freewill contingent on surprising God???
Freewill is resident in the created creature and is a gift that is truly our own and must be used responsibly or else we damage our relationship with ourselves, with each other, with creation itself and with God. Freewill is what gives human-beings that capacity to give and receive love. Just because God knows in advance of our expressions of love or rejection does not invalidate our own personal context which is decidedly **not **omnipotent. To apply freewill in the positive expression of love is to become more like God. Therefor, love is an instrument by which we can become as children of God and perfect ourselves by emulating the perfect example of Christ.

There is no contradiction.

James