Predestination (2)

[Will_B]

The Bible makes clear to us that God is both all knowing and that we are able to make choices in our lives. This is hard to comprehend, but so is the concept of Jesus being 100% Divine and 100% Human, but most people have no problem accepting that through faith. The seeming contradiciton you bring up is no different and is of God as well.

It is much easier to accept that Jesus is both God and Man… This is only for the good of mankind… The paradox on Predestination takes away from mankind, because we think we have “Free Will” but we really don’t… If the choices we make are known ahead of our making them, by thousands of years, and we can’t change our choices because they are known by God, how can our choice really be a choice??

 

[Will_B]

Someone once said to me there is a difference between Predestination and Foreknowledge.

I can watch my grandson sit down and eat 100 chocolate bunnies and know this will make him sick and throw up… I know the consequences of his sin… That is foreknowledge. God can watch me drive 99 miles an hour down a small country road and know I may run into a tree and be killed… That is foreknowledge… He knows the consequences of my sin…

Knowing at the dawn of time that a young German (Adolf Hitler) boy will be born and he will destroy thousands of Jews is predestination… Something is wrong here…

 

[peeteyg]

God doesn’t determine what we will do. He knows the names of the people written into the book of life, these are the elect that predestination is speaking of. The elect or chosen are the ones who are predestined to glory or who will achieve ultimate salvation. We don’t know who they are. You may find that someone you know who is a total sinner may be among the elect. You may find that someone who you feel is totally holy may not be among the elect.

I guess we can look at the opposite view which I reject. Calvinism believes that God uses irrestible grace. For his own good pleasure he predestines some to glory and some he condemns to hell. So in essence he creates some men for the sole purpose to send them to hell. This makes god the author of evil. This one point is the reason I reject it. Satan and man fell in the garden of eden due to our pride. We both wanted to be like god. God predestines no one to hell. It is in the bible. God wills that all men be saved and come to repentance. ** Remember a thousand questions do not equal one doubt.**

God raised up pharoah in egypt to demonstrate his power and glory. He hardened pharoahs heart to go after the jews. He spoke of these events to Abraham to whom he made a covenant. Even though god knew we would sin he has forgiven us and given us many chances. When you read Revelation you will see that the time is near to make a choice and do what god commands or sin. This Earth and the Old Heaven will end and there willl be a New earth and New heaven and there will be a permanent place prepared for sinners and it is a Lake of Fire. The elect will walk in the presence of god like the Garden of Eden. This is why we have faith and follow gods laws and accept jesus.

 

[Michael_Vernon]

There is much that is doctrinally or Biblically correct in what you folks are saying and you are explaining some things in good and simple ways. May i add a little to your explanations, although you may already understand these things? Regarding foreknowledge, i think we should remember that GOD dwells in the eternal now. All time, from the beginning to the end is always present with Him. So His foreknowledge is perfect, and knowing should not be confused with causing. God foresees sin and allows it, but He does not cause it. He provides the Remedy for it. He foresees tragedies and allows them and He can provide for relief from tragedies and cause good to come out of them. He writes the names in the Book of Life. As Jesus said, “No one can come to me unless the Father draws him.”

 

[Will_B]

No one has yet addressed the problem as I have written it…

• God knows all, past, present and future.
• God knew before He created Earth that:
• Adam & Eve would sin… Did they really have a choice? If they did not sin would God have been surprised?
• He knew that Mary would say Yes… If she would have said “No thank you, this is just too much for a teenager to handle” Would God have been surprised?? He knew she would say yes but she said No.
• Judas betrayed Christ… If Judas would has stayed at the last supper and not collected his 30 pieces of silver, would someone else have done the betrayal? If Judas didn’t hang himself would God have been surprised? God knew he would…
• He knew that Adolf Hitler would send thousands upon thousands of Jews to the gas chamber. >> If he would have remained in the Church and became a loving priest, would that have surprised God?? I know it would have changed history as we know it.
• He knew the JFK would be assassinated in 1963… If Lee Harvey Oswald would have changed his mind, would God have been surprised?

If all these events would have been done different, there can only be but two accounts.

1. • God really doesn’t know the outcome of the future, because the future hasn’t happened yet… God is the Great “I Am” God is eternally present in the present, not the past nor the future. (or)
   • There is predestination, but we can change it and surprise God.
   It seems to me that: Predestination can not exist and mankind still have Free Will… It’s either one or the other… Or if we have Free Will, there is no predestination because we can change the events that are destine to happen…
   
   Or does God have a plan “B” when plan “A” doesn’t happen? I was told by a Bishop that God never has a plan “B”.

 

[Cristian_B]

No one has yet addressed the problem as I have written it…

• God knows all, past, present and future.
• God knew before He created Earth that:
• Adam & Eve would sin… Did they really have a choice? If they did not sin would God have been surprised?
• He knew that Mary would say Yes… If she would have said “No thank you, this is just too much for a teenager to handle” Would God have been surprised?? He knew she would say yes but she said No.
• Judas betrayed Christ… If Judas would has stayed at the last supper and not collected his 30 pieces of silver, would someone else have done the betrayal? If Judas didn’t hang himself would God have been surprised? God knew he would…
• He knew that Adolf Hitler would send thousands upon thousands of Jews to the gas chamber. >> If he would have remained in the Church and became a loving priest, would that have surprised God?? I know it would have changed history as we know it.
• He knew the JFK would be assassinated in 1963… If Lee Harvey Oswald would have changed his mind, would God have been surprised?

If all these events would have been done different, there can only be but two accounts.

1. • God really doesn’t know the outcome of the future, because the future hasn’t happened yet… God is the Great “I Am” God is eternally present in the present, not the past nor the future. (or)
   • There is predestination, but we can change it and surprise God.
   It seems to me that: Predestination can not exist and mankind still have Free Will… It’s either one or the other… Or if we have Free Will, there is no predestination because we can change the events that are destine to happen…
   
   Or does God have a plan “B” when plan “A” doesn’t happen? I was told by a Bishop that God never has a plan “B”.

1. 
   So… what has surprising God have to do with the fact that we are responsible for our actions (free will)?

 

[Will_B]

So… what has surprising God have to do with the fact that we are responsible for our actions (free will)?

The idea is… If God knows all that is going to happen, before it happens… Then we can’t change what is going to happen, thus cancelling out “Free Will”… If we have “Free Will” then we can change what God knows will happen… If we can change the events that are predestined then God would be surprised (or maybe not)

I’m really trying to understand this predestination thing…

• 1. If we have “Free Will” we can change the predestined events, therefore No Predestination…
  2. If the events are predestined and can’t be changed, then we don’t have “Free Will” We are just actors on a stage acting out the script written from the beginning of time… No matter what we do, will not change the script.
  Bottom line, how can you be responsible for what you are destined for from the beginning of time.

 

[CentralFLJames]

No one has yet addressed the problem as I have written it…

• God knows all, past, present and future.
• God knew before He created Earth that:
• Adam & Eve would sin… Did they really have a choice? If they did not sin would God have been surprised?
• He knew that Mary would say Yes… If she would have said “No thank you, this is just too much for a teenager to handle” Would God have been surprised?? He knew she would say yes but she said No.
• Judas betrayed Christ… If Judas would has stayed at the last supper and not collected his 30 pieces of silver, would someone else have done the betrayal? If Judas didn’t hang himself would God have been surprised? God knew he would…
• He knew that Adolf Hitler would send thousands upon thousands of Jews to the gas chamber. >> If he would have remained in the Church and became a loving priest, would that have surprised God?? I know it would have changed history as we know it.
• He knew the JFK would be assassinated in 1963… If Lee Harvey Oswald would have changed his mind, would God have been surprised?

If all these events would have been done different, there can only be but two accounts.

1. • God really doesn’t know the outcome of the future, because the future hasn’t happened yet… God is the Great “I Am” God is eternally present in the present, not the past nor the future. (or)
   • There is predestination, but we can change it and surprise God.
   It seems to me that: Predestination can not exist and mankind still have Free Will… It’s either one or the other… Or if we have Free Will, there is no predestination because we can change the events that are destine to happen…
   
   Or does God have a plan “B” when plan “A” doesn’t happen? I was told by a Bishop that God never has a plan “B”.

1. 
   Will B, its odd that you are making the same logic error and using the same word “surprised” that Schn used (who is now banned BTW).
   
   What does surprised have to do with anything? Don’t you believe that God is omnipotent - “all seeing”? Are you sure you are really Catholic? No disrespect, but do you know what the word “freewill” means?
   definition of freewill:
   

   ***free will
   n.
   

   1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
   2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.***

   No where in that definition is there any concept of “surprising God”.
   
   If God were to surprise you by sending an angel to offer you eternal life in heaven if you simply said “yes” would you say “no” just to try to surprise God with a flippant reply? It’s still your choice?
   
   Would you then try to tell God you never really had a choice if you then died and went to hell a moment after saying “no”? It seems to me that you would only surprised yourself in getting exactly what you asked for and not taking God at His word…
   
   God desires all to gain eternal salvation. He gives all the natural desire to seek out the truth about Him and also the actual grace necessary for repenting and then the sanctifying grace after one converts. Again, what does divine surprise have to do with any of that???
   The choice is still yours to make and God is not forcing you to do anything against YOUR will. It sounds to me like you don’t trust in God’s fairness or do not think He is benevolent. But if that were the case then everyone would be born in-situ either directly in hell or in heaven depending on one’s unelective fate.
   
   James

 

[Will_B]

Will B, its odd that you are making the same logic error and using the same word “surprised” that Schn used (who is now banned BTW).

What does surprised have to do with anything? Don’t you believe that God is omnipotent - “all seeing”? Are you sure you are really Catholic? No disrespect, but do you know what the word “freewill” means?

No where in that definition is there any concept of “surprising God”.

If God were to surprise you by sending an angel to offer you eternal life in heaven if you simply said “yes” would you say “no” just to try to surprise God with a flippant reply? It’s still your choice?

Would you then try to tell God you never really had a choice if you then died and went to hell a moment after saying “no”? It seems to me that you would only surprised yourself in getting exactly what you asked for and not taking God at His word…

God desires all to gain eternal salvation. He gives all the natural desire to seek out the truth about Him and also the actual grace necessary for repenting and then the sanctifying grace after one converts. Again, what does divine surprise have to do with any of that???
The choice is still yours to make and God is not forcing you to do anything against YOUR will. It sounds to me like you don’t trust in God’s fairness or do not think He is benevolent. But if that were the case then everyone would be born in-situ either directly in hell or in heaven depending on one’s unelective fate.

James

I like your definition of “Free Will” … And I believe we have “Free Will”… The idea is how can there be both Free Will and Predestination… One would cancel the other.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I like your definition of “Free Will” … And I believe we have “Free Will”… The idea is how can there be both Free Will and Predestination… One would cancel the other.

I think then that you must be seeing “Predestination” in the wrong light.

The entire concept of Predestiny is a human concept that comes into our vocabulary as a result of our trying to understand some of God’s ways within our limited human facilities of thinking. But God “IS” and is not constrained. God is infinitely above the mere limitations of human thinking. For God there are no mysteries nor are there any paradoxes - He is all seeing and all knowing - everything serves His purposes and makes perfect sense to Him since He is in control of all things.

The error most make about predestinty is in thinking that just because God knows who will choose to respond to His grace and be saved that He then must also ordain and predestine some to damnation. It is a common error since we humans like to think in terms of symmetry. This was the error of the Calvinists - a doctrine of double-predestity. But this is not a Catholic teaching. It is called double predestination because it holds that God chose both whom to save and whom to damn, as opposed to single predestination which contends only that God predestines some to heaven based on His knowledge of who will respond to His grace. He did not choose whom to damn - in fact one is damned by the consequences of one’s own choices and faults. God just honors our choices and permits them. See more here: Calvinism-Predestination

Catholics believe that God creates all for the good purpose of “knowing, loving and serving God”. We believe that all are called to salvation but that some will reject His call and will elect damnation by “their own fault”. Just because God knows who will reject Him before He creates them does not mean that God creates them for the purpose of damnation. What God does is give each soul all the actual grace sufficient for repenting and for salvation without prejudice to His knowledge of their life-choices.

We are not equipped to dare judge God here. God can not do the slightest evil nor be unjust- that is just not the nature of God. If a soul rejects God then that is because it chose to do so not because God willed it so. God only permits free-choice and its eternal consequences. Prayer is all about asking God to intervene to help us when we recognize that we have made the wrong choices (or to help others we pray for).

Am I making any sense here to you?

James

 

[Will_B]

I think then that you must be seeing “Predestination” in the wrong light.

The entire concept of Predestiny is a human concept that comes into our vocabulary as a result of our trying to understand some of God’s ways within our limited human facilities of thinking. But God “IS” and is not constrained. God is infinitely above the mere limitations of human thinking. For God there are no mysteries nor are there any paradoxes - He is all seeing and all knowing - everything serves His purposes and makes perfect sense to Him since He is in control of all things.

The error most make about predestinty is in thinking that just because God knows who will choose to respond to His grace and be saved that He then must also ordain and predestine some to damnation. It is a common error since we humans like to think in terms of symmetry. This was the error of the Calvinists - a doctrine of double-predestity. But this is not a Catholic teaching. It is called double predestination because it holds that God chose both whom to save and whom to damn, as opposed to single predestination which contends only that God predestines some to heaven based on His knowledge of who will respond to His grace. He did not choose whom to damn - in fact one is damned by the consequences of one’s own choices and faults. God just honors our choices and permits them. See more here: Calvinism-Predestination

Catholics believe that God creates all for the good purpose of “knowing, loving and serving God”. We believe that all are called to salvation but that some will reject His call and will elect damnation by “their own fault”. Just because God knows who will reject Him before He creates them does not mean that God creates them for the purpose of damnation. What God does is give each soul all the actual grace sufficient for repenting and for salvation without prejudice to His knowledge of their life-choices.

We are not equipped to dare judge God here. God can not do the slightest evil nor be unjust- that is just not the nature of God. If a soul rejects God then that is because it chose to do so not because God willed it so. God only permits free-choice and its eternal consequences. Prayer is all about asking God to intervene to help us when we recognize that we have made the wrong choices (or to help others we pray for).

Am I making any sense here to you?

James

James…

You have come closer then anyone in explaining predestination… I still have questions:

1. • If God knows all that is going to happen, before it happens, then how can we change what is going to happen.
   • Example: God knows in the year 2015 that I am going to drive my car at 90 MPH, get pulled over by the police, end up getting agree at the cop and cussing him out… >> How can I change these events… I don’t want to do them, but God knows I am going to do them, therefore it has been determined (predestination) that these events will happen.
   • I know we can’t change history… It’s already happened.
   • I believe I can change the future, because I have Free Will and also the future hasn’t happened yet… But if God has written the Future, how can I change it??
   This is my problem with predestination.
   • I have been told about foreknowledge… It’s more like knowing the consequences of ones actions… If I drink too much alcohol I get drunk, if I drink more alcohol I get sick, and if I still drink more I pass out. That’s foreknowledge, and I’m sure God’s foreknowledge is much greater then any human.
   • However, predestination (as I have been told) means that God knows what will happen before it happens and has known since the dawn of time… He knew at the dawn of creation that Adolf Hitler would be born and the evil things he would do… There are millions upon million events that could have prevent Hitler’s birth (Example his great-grandfather could have been killed before he married his great-grandmother) … But God know the ancestry of Hitler at the dawn of creation, and knew Hitler would be born, etc…
   This is where I am having a problem with predestination. Either the future hasn’t been written yet, God knows the consequences of our actions, and these consequences can be changed by our actions. (Or) Our future has been written and we can’t change it because it was predetermined by God…

 

[CentralFLJames]

James…

You have come closer then anyone in explaining predestination… I still have questions:

1. • If God knows all that is going to happen, before it happens, then how can we change what is going to happen.
     James: Why would you even think to change what God has ordained? God has ordained that you free will and that your choices have eternal consequences. Few people think of this but God has given humankind incredible “god like” power in giving us the gift of freewill. Freewill also means we have the ability to change while we still have our mortal lives. Also remember that God does not force nor desire for anyone to sin. God is not evil and does not create any man for evil intention – though He can and does use evil to serve His purposes once evil sets itself into motion by freewill.
   Our future is based on our own choices and how those choices interact with other’s choices and with God’s objective end. Also, keep in mind that God loves even the sinner and so do God’s people. “Actual grace” (not sanctifying grace) can be increased by intercession or by God since God is patient and merciful. So even if one commits a horrible sin - a person who is receptive to grace can still be saved. God does not expect us to always be perfect - even though He desires we strive for perfection. It all comes down to one recognizing their faults and repentance. Sin always brings unhappiness and suffering and so those depravities created by sin will in the supernatural order operate to torment us toward humility to ask God for mercy or to harden our heart if we remain obstinate in sin.
   • Example: God knows in the year 2015 that I am going to drive my car at 90 MPH, get pulled over by the police, end up getting agree at the cop and cussing him out… >> How can I change these events… I don’t want to do them, but God knows I am going to do them, therefore it has been determined (predestination) that these events will happen.
     James: You can’t change what God has already seen in eternity what you will do. In your example It may be the case that some kind soul saw you speeding and prayed for you and God made you realize that you were speeding and you decided to slow down before the entire incident developed. Humans have no foreknowledge of any of this. Or it may be that your anger caused you to get arrested and you landed in jail where you learned the consequences of not being humble and repented and never again drove irresponsibly or ever lost your temper and became an inspiration to your children and saved someone’s life. This is in fact just how God can make good come from evil to advance Divine Providence. Christ’s passion on the cross radically reconfigured all of creation so that we have a natural gravity toward God. In spire of all the hedonism of the day the world is actually advancing with more millions of people believing in God than at any time in prior History. We need to trust in God here. While you have life you will always have your own freewill to do as you choose - for better or worse. And God always has the ability to step in and give you warnings or graces as a result of your own or the Church’s prayers to advance Divine Providence. God can use both evil deeds or good deeds to serve him but never wills that anyone commit evil.
   • I know we can’t change history… It’s already happened.
   • I believe I can change the future, because I have Free Will and also the future hasn’t happened yet… But if God has written the Future, how can I change it??
     James: Trust God. The future is formed by the combined choices of all people operating within the framework of God’s Divine Providence. This is why we must pray daily that we not be put to the test. Why would you want to change a future that could be good for you? Pray for good things and for the conversion of the wicked - but don’t worry about the bad. This all comes down to trusting in God while being proactive as one of God’s People (prayer is part of Divine Providence and is a way for human beings to participate in supernatural works viz our own freewill). If you are faithful to Christ’s teachings and pray and stay in a relationship with God by avoiding sin and by earnestly repenting and seeking forgivness when you do sin then you have nothing to fear of the future. God will save those who seek Him out of a sincere desire to know and love Him and approach Him with a humble and sincere heart. We have no way of knowing what possible future calamities have been averted by our own prayer and obedience. We should not be thinking in terms of fate at all if we strive to remain in good grace and do God’s will for us.
   This is my problem with predestination.
   • I have been told about foreknowledge… It’s more like knowing the consequences of ones actions… If I drink too much alcohol I get drunk, if I drink more alcohol I get sick, and if I still drink more I pass out. That’s foreknowledge, and I’m sure God’s foreknowledge is much greater then any human.
     James: God’s foreknowledge is of course perfect - not merely predictive as we humans do. We know from experience and from divine instruction what to avoid.
   • However, predestination (as I have been told) means that God knows what will happen before it happens and has known since the dawn of time… He knew at the dawn of creation that Adolf Hitler would be born and the evil things he would do… There are millions upon million events that could have prevent Hitler’s birth (Example his great-grandfather could have been killed before he married his great-grandmother) … But God know the ancestry of Hitler at the dawn of creation, and knew Hitler would be born, etc…
     James:
     In your example Hitler was not only foreseen but created for a good purpose. Hitler elected of his own freewill to reject His calling in life and rebel against God. He is no different than Lucifer in that regard – nor is any sinner any different. But even so God used Hitler’s evil deeds to advance His Divine Providence toward His objective end - which we know in advance brings a greater glory to God. From the Nazi atrocities the world has since learned an important lesson about fascism and genocide and advanced its moral laws to try to prevent it from happening again. If a Hitler had happened just a short time later than He did then the humanity could have seen entire nations obliterated by atomic warfare to purify the human race. The losses of WW II were staggering and repulsive but we will never know the extent of the good that came out of bringing the world all together to fight racism, bigotry and fascism before it took control of the entire world (which was Hitler’s objective). This was in fact a triumph of good over evil and while the cost was high its easy to see that the cost would have been much greater if it happened at a later time in history when a politically naive and complacent world might have let it happen on a grander scale with more lethal weapons.
   This is where I am having a problem with predestination. Either the future hasn’t been written yet, God knows the consequences of our actions, and these consequences can be changed by our actions. (Or) Our future has been written and we can’t change it because it was predetermined by God…

1. 
   The bottom line is that the future is a function of God’s Divine Providence and individuals need to make their decisions and choose what they desire - eternal life or eternal damnation. It’s really that simple.
   
   James

 

[brb3]

This is where I am having a problem with predestination. Either the future hasn’t been written yet, God knows the consequences of our actions, and these consequences can be changed by our actions. (Or) Our future has been written and we can’t change it because it was predetermined by God…

The only way predestination makes sense is to see it from God’s Omniscience. Just as our hindsight can be 20/20 … God is not limited by time & place. He can see the future with 20/20 foresight … the definition of Omniscience.

How else could God prophesy in OT so exactly of future events ? Our free will is not effected/violated by his Omniscience.

Scripture teaches in John 3:16 “that whosoever believes will be saved”. We are not robots. Love is not robotic. Would a loving God create a man/woman in his image … and consign them to damnation ? That would be unethical, sinful. God does not sin or harbor evil desires/plans for his creation.

We determine our outcomes. God does not violate our free wills. If he did, he could not possible judge us fairly in the End Times.

 

[Will_B]

How else could God prophesy in OT so exactly of future events ? Our free will is not effected/violated by his Omniscience.

.

Just how exactly is exactly… Please remember, I am trying to understand predestination.

The Hebrews were in a 400 year captivity in Egypt… The profits told of a deliver, but never gave a date and time… Moses did answer God’s call.

Isaiah told of the coming of Christ, but never gave a date and time. Isaiah just gave a foreshadow of events that would occur…

Pope Pius (XI or XII) prophesied of the moral destruction of the human race because of birth control. Pope Paul VI wrote Humanae Vita to keep the Church in line with God’s law form human life… Yet these were foreshadows given by the Holy Spirit… All saying unless human kind changes, these are the consequences… Nothing predestine about them…

My problem is: If God knows all that is going to happen (Predestination) how can we possibly choose… By us choosing, the predestine events may not occur.
Or, If we can choose, how can there be such a thing as predestination??

I have read many theories as to the outcome of evil events and how God made them work out for good… But no one has really explained Predestination…

 

[Mark01]

Will B

I feel you maybe looking to hard at God’s infinite mind when we as humans see things in a finite way. The future is infinite targets with infinite outcomes. Here comes the hard part, God has His sight on all the infinite targets. We as human cannot possibly see what God sees through His sight. Predestination is the ability of God to take the finite bullet of our “choice” and hit His infinite moving target. He even has the ability to adjust our finite bullet of “choice” after it has left the barrel of His gun. That is what makes is such a mystery. The Mystery of Faith in God’s ability to hit the target He has chosen.

The finite bullet of our “choice” flies between the end of the barrel (our birth) and the target (our death and final judgment) and is used by God to achieve His Kingdom here on Earth at His Sons second coming.

Hope this analogy helps.

 

[Will_B]

Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut on “Predestination” … Seems everyone has a different take on how it is possible for Predestination and Free Will to exist at the same time.

This subject has taxed my brain like no other… I am able to grasp most theological subjects with ease because I can see the power, grace and love of God in all the other subjects.

Predestination seems to take away from the dignity of the human… Sense God is about giving us dignity, why would He take it away with Predestination.

I have said this before, but none have picked up on this idea.

1. 
   *]Predestination is like sitting down to a chess game and your opponent knows all your moves before your make them… You can’t even change your mind because the moves have been predetermined (That is the definition of predestination?? or am I wrong)
   *]Free Will is the ability to make choices… Good choices, loving choices, bad choices, or evil choices.
   *]If our choices are predestine, how can there be Free Will…

 

[JVD]

Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut on “Predestination” … Seems everyone has a different take on how it is possible for Predestination and Free Will to exist at the same time.

This subject has taxed my brain like no other… I am able to grasp most theological subjects with ease because I can see the power, grace and love of God in all the other subjects.

Predestination seems to take away from the dignity of the human… Sense God is about giving us dignity, why would He take it away with Predestination.

I have said this before, but none have picked up on this idea.

1. 
   *]Predestination is like sitting down to a chess game and your opponent knows all your moves before your make them… You can’t even change your mind because the moves have been predetermined (That is the definition of predestination?? or am I wrong)
   *]Free Will is the ability to make choices… Good choices, loving choices, bad choices, or evil choices.
   *]If our choices are predestine, how can there be Free Will…

1. 
   You are seeing God as an opponent? Heavens - no. God is on our side - He wants us to love Him and live with Him for eternity. Predestiny is a good thing. You can always change your mind while you are alive - that is what repentance is.
   
   Freewill is not a license to do anything. It is a gift that must be used responsibly. God is testing us to make sure that we are suitable for greater things in the afterlife. If we are responsible in our use of the powerful gift of freewill (using it for acts of charity) then God will likely give us much more power in the new Creation when He destroys the old Creation and removes the wicked.
   
   You are not pre-destined to make certain choices independent of your will. It sounds like you don’t trust yourself. All your choices are still your personal choices. Just because God knows what you will do does not mean that He forces you to do anything against your will to damn you. No! He wants you to gain salvation. If anything we should want for God to remove our freewill and force us to obey so we can’t do anything bad. But God can’t do that since He wants you of your own free choice to love Him rather than using His power to force you to love Him. But true love can’t be forced - it has to be an action of free will and assent. Can’t you see that? God is benevolent and not a tyrant.
   
   James

 

[Young_Thinker]

Is Jansenism still considered heretical? Their concept of predestination was extreme. They were often seen as really being Protestants(because of Calvinesque ideas), yet the Jansenists(i.e. advocates of absolute predestination) held that there is no salvation outside of the Church!.

 

[peeteyg]

Go on the Internets or Internet machine (tongue in cheek) and look up Molonist or Thomist. These are the two views that are acceptable views as catholics. It feels very presumptuos of us to think we can understand anything from Gods point of view. We have scripture to teach us and the Early Church Fathers. The Ante-Nicene church fathers have many things to say regarding Free will and Predestination. Remember it is not “I understand so I can believe, it is rather I believe so I can understand”. Maybe instead of feeling doubt, which is what Satan wants you should see this as a challenge to more deeply enter in to the subject and see what is revealed to you. I agree with every point of view I have heard so far regarding the subject, and it is difficult to wrap your mind around an enigma. Just remember that you have free will and god doesn’t predestine anyone to hell. Salvation is a free gift and can be lost. If you decide that there is no free will, then you may decide to act (free will) sinful and lose your salvation. This is what is truly at stake here. You can freely sin or freely come to god, that is why we are concerned about final things. Continuing to doubt free will can lead you to the Dark Side of the Force, or maybe at least the Protestant side of the force. They also generally deny free will.

 

[brb3]

Just how exactly is exactly… Please remember, I am trying to understand predestination.

My problem is: If God knows all that is going to happen (Predestination) how can we possibly choose… By us choosing, the predestine events may not occur.
Or, If we can choose, how can there be such a thing as predestination??

I have read many theories as to the outcome of evil events and how God made them work out for good… But no one has really explained Predestination…

You are making this harder than it need be. Break Predestination down to its basics.
It is beyond dispute that much OT prophesies have been fulfilled down to even minor details.

God by definition is ALL KNOWING. If you limit God in this way … he is no longer God for you. Either God can A). see the future [able to move ahead thru time to see the chessgames’ conclusion] or he is B). currently manipulating the lives of all men … violating our free will [making us puppets on a string], condemning some to damnation from their creation ---- to obtain the checkmate of satan he has prophesied in scripture.

Scripture rules out choice B. Now, can we understand how choice A can work ? No. God’s ways are higher than ours. Can the creature fully understand the Creator ? We look thru tinted glass. We lack the Gigabytes to the nth power … to discover the mind of God.